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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2005 10:39am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spunky
    I've read the claims of Takamatsu and Kano being friends, but most research on the subject seems to indicate that he was more likely one of many guest instructors. DakotaJudo has retorted the supposed Takamatsu-den/Judo connection, but I can't remember the details.

    The material I've seen on Gyokushin ryu states that it is thought to have come from (or is based on) Gyokko ryu, and focused on espionage but was known for its sutemi and nagenawa. It was supposedly not openly taught until it mixed with other ryu under the Toda clan. I've heard Gyokushin translated as something like "The Heart of Gyokko" but I don't know how "correct" that is... it makes sense though looking at Gyokushin ryu as being a manifestation of Gyokko's "ninjutsu" elements, and sort of explains that even if it was its own line it was never really independent.

    There is a Hon Tai Gyokushin ryu linked to Gyokko ryu as well, which changed to Izumo ryu??

    There is also mention that Ueno Takashi claimed to be soke of Gyokushin ryu and gave a completely different lineage that started with Sasaki but never passed to the Toda clan at all. It also states that he may now be dead and his version passed to a Kaminage Shigemi.

    And I swear I've read somewhere that the Gyokushin ryu in the Bujinkan is not to be confused with Gyokushin ryu jujutsu (despite both being known for sutemi), but I can't find the source.

    This sounds like some of Buj revisionism. The reason I say that is it is a well know fact that Ueno Takashi taught Gyokushin Ryu Koppo and never refered to it as NINJUTSU. And Hatsumi and Takashi trained together. Now given that Koppo is really another form of Jujutsu, but dealing with more striking methods just like hakuda, goho, and others this isn't a stretch that Gyokushin can be a branch of a other JJ school. In theBugei Ryuha Daijiten there are several listings for Gyokushin Ryu (Seigo Gyokushin Ryu, Mukyu Gokyokusin Ryu, and a few others) NONE are listed as ninjutsu schools. (To note that their isn't bias Hatsumi is listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten as soke of several schools but Gyokushin Ryu Ninpo is not listed nor is Togakure Ryu ninpo)
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  2. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2005 7:03pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu.
    Never heard judo sutemi coming from Gyokushin. "the sutemi" - not even sure what that means - different sutemi-waza come from different sources.

    Its obvious, from Koshiki-no-kata, that a least a couple Kodokan sutemi come from Kito (e.g. yoko-wakare). Meik Skoss's article on Tenshin Shinyo Ryu credits that school with sumi-gaeshi specifically, as well as other unspecified masutemi and yokosutemi waza. I would assume this includes the sutemi-waza of Nage-no-kata; this kata was formalized pretty early on and most likely is primarily TSR.

    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.
    I've addressed this a couple times; one of these days I'm going to write a judo myth article, this will be one of the main ones.

    Short answer, Steve Cunningham mentions a Takamatsu of the Kukishin, having taught his tukuiwaza, hiza-guruma, to the Kodokan. I have yet to see anything in any X-kan art that looks like the hiza-guruma of the Kodokan; and hiza-guruma was introduced no later than 1895 (was Takamatsu sprouting hair on his balls by that time?).

    The Cunningham reference is a oral history, based on his rememberances of what his teacher told him. There are some statements of fact in that history that others have challenged.

    The history also mentions that Takamatsu taught weapons to Kano, and that Kano was a weapons expert. If he was, that expertise was not passed along in the Kodokan syllabus.

    As for friendship between the two - that's a little problematic as well. I have yet to see evidence that the two were together at any one place at the same time. There was nearly a generation gap between the two. Takamatsu supposedly spent a good decade in China during the early part of the century; while Kano was traveling extensively in later decades.

    I don't know - they might have been friends; but without a picture of them together or some other hard evidence, I'm not inclined to believe it.
  3. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 5:29pm

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    I am in agreance with you on alot of this. My main point was to show that Gyokushin Ryu being listed as a NINJUTSU school is highly suspect.

    Takamatsu (Hatsumi's teacher) did pretty much save the Kukishinden school because he had a copy of the schools Makimono that were lost.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 5:50pm

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

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    From ninjutsu.com:

    The Gyokushin Ryu was taught in the Kishu and Takeda Fiefs. This possibly happened in the 1600's, and it was then that it came into contact with the Togakure Ryu. It is not known in the west as to what the fighting techniques of the Gyokushin Ryu are. All that is really known is that it uses sutemi throws. What is known is that this school concentrated more on the espionage side of ninjutsu, rather than the fighting side. It has been said that the specialties of this ryu were the kusari fundo, ninjutsu, koppojutsu, jutaijutsu, kenjutsu and Iaijutsu, although we have no confirmation on this. Hatsumi says this about the Gyokushin Ryu in his book "Hiden Ninja Submission"..."It is a faction of kosshijutsu and was founded by Sasaki Orouemon Akiyari. A characteristic of the ryu is found in the kind of weapons it uses. Gyokushin Ryu is known for its superior use of nagenawa, a lasso."
    Basically making a few guesses and saying it came into contact with Togakure Ryu, which might be why they consider it a Ninpo school. They don't really know too much about it themselves, only Soke does and maybe a few of the Japanese shihan but that's about it.

    Kano Jigero, the founder of Kodokan Judo, was a friend of Takamatsu's. It is possible that Takamatsu taught at the Kodokan as a guest instructor and that what he taught there was the Gyokushin Ryu. This also makes the claim by Mochizuki believable. He was born in 1907, and started Budo at the age of 5 years old. He studied many things such as Gyokushin Ryu Jujutsu. At the age of 26 he joined the Kodokan, and in 1928 was promoted to Sandan. At this time he was living in Tsurumi. Mochizuki says that the suitemi techniques taught in the new martial art he has created, the Yoseikan (based on Judo, Aikido, Karate, and Katori Shinto Ryu), come from the Gyokushin Ryu. Mochizuki was a student of Kano at the Kodokan, and holds the rank of 8th Dan in Judo. He was also a student of Mifune Kyuzo, a personal student of Ueshiba Moritaka the founder of Aikido. Through Mifune, he became a close friend and student of Ueshiba. Ueshiba was a regular visitor to Mochizuki's home, and once presented him with two Makimono. 1. Daito Ryu Aikibujutsu. This is the same as the Daito Ryu Aikijutsu Hiden Mokuroku Makimono given out by the now deceased head of the Daito Ryu, Sokaku Takeda. 2. Hiden Oesi. This is a copy of the highest level scroll in the Daito ryu. Both are signed, and dated Showa, roku nen, roku gatsu (June 1932), Ueshiba Moritaka, a student of Takeda Sokaku. They also bear the seal Aikijujutsu.
    This says jujitsu. To be completely honest though, who gives a damn? Koryu or not, the stuff's not bad so let it stick around.
  5. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 6:01pm

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    I give a damn BITCH!!!

    Don't call it Ninjutsu when its not!!!!

    GONG SAU!!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. Spunky is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 6:47pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

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    Yeah I didn't mean to imply that Ueno Takashi called it ninjutsu/ninpo. The stuff I've read on the subject seems to use different labels depending on the context, just as often referring to Gyokushin ryu as jujutsu or kosshijutsu.

    In old Bujinkan literature, you see references to all of the Hatsumi-den ryu being called "ninjutsu," even those books credited to Hatsumi. But many of these sources were purportedly ghost written by foreigners, derived at best from funky translations and limited understanding. The histories circulating on the web about the Bujinkan are virtually all paraphrasings of these same sources. I'm very curious what I'd hear directly in Japan on the subject, but I hardly expect it to come up any time soon.

    I've only seen a couple examples of what is supposedly Gyokushin ryu taijutsu, which either looks like Gyokko ryu on steroids or lots of alchohol :smile: but I have no idea how accurate it is.
    Last edited by Spunky; 10/17/2005 6:53pm at .
  7. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 6:58pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    I am in agreance with you on alot of this. My main point was to show that Gyokushin Ryu being listed as a NINJUTSU school is highly suspect.

    Takamatsu (Hatsumi's teacher) did pretty much save the Kukishinden school because he had a copy of the schools Makimono that were lost.
    Actually on the New (Soke makes new Dan and Kyu certs every few years) Dan cert it now lists it as Gkyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu
    Last edited by shinbushi; 10/17/2005 7:01pm at .
  8. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/17/2005 7:05pm

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    The Introductory History states that there are two different gyokushin ryu. A guy named Mochizuki ws born in 1907 and studied martial arts since he was five. One of these was gyokushin ryu jujutsu. When he was 26 he joined the kodokan and was given the rank of 3rd dan. He created a martial art called Yoseikan based on judo, akido, karate and katori shinto ryu. He said that his sutemiwaza came from the gyokushin ryu. This was gyokoshin ryu jujutsu and he never met or trained under Takamatsu. Gyokushin ryu ninjutsu came through the Toda family.
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2005 8:44am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    The Introductory History states that there are two different gyokushin ryu. A guy named Mochizuki ws born in 1907 and studied martial arts since he was five. One of these was gyokushin ryu jujutsu. When he was 26 he joined the kodokan and was given the rank of 3rd dan. He created a martial art called Yoseikan based on judo, akido, karate and katori shinto ryu. He said that his sutemiwaza came from the gyokushin ryu. This was gyokoshin ryu jujutsu and he never met or trained under Takamatsu. Gyokushin ryu ninjutsu came through the Toda family.
    Did you even read the posts? That has been covered and Gyokushin is not listed as ninjutsu anywhere except in the Buj!!! I listed several schools in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten with the name Gyokushin but none are listed as ninjutsu!!! PAY ATTENTION!!! GONG SAU!!! :ninjadanc

    Yeah I didn't mean to imply that Ueno Takashi called it ninjutsu/ninpo. The stuff I've read on the subject seems to use different labels depending on the context, just as often referring to Gyokushin ryu as jujutsu or kosshijutsu.
    Actually Ueno Takashi called it Gyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu.

    Actually on the New (Soke makes new Dan and Kyu certs every few years) Dan cert it now lists it as Gkyokushin Ryu Koppojutsu
    Hmm So why the change? Unless I was right all along and Gyokushin were never a ninjutsu school!!! :ninjadanc :ninjadanc
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2005 12:39pm

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

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    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    Hmm So why the change? Unless I was right all along and Gyokushin were never a ninjutsu school!!! :ninjadanc :ninjadanc
    A ninja never tells....
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