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  1. Peter H. is offline

    Professional Wrestler

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    Oct 2003
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 11:03am


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I genuinely curious. What qualifies an art for Koryu status, and why would the Bujinkan's training methods bar it ?
    Koryu normaly refers to any school with a traceable, authenticated lineage, and training method dating to the Tokugawa era (1603-1868) prior to the Meiji Restoration, from Japan (not including Okinawa, if I remember correctly)
    (see www.koryu.com for list).
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  2. gcarson is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 2:50pm


     Style: Byakuren Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are no legit Ninjutsu Ryu. That said, one has to realize that the practices that are often classed as "ninjutsu" have never stood alone in their own style, but are parts of larger curriculum.

    The one (and pretty much only for sure) school that has been authenticated by all authorities is the division of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu that contains ninjutsu in its training. This school has been given the nod for being the oldest (proven -not claimed) school in Japan.

    There are others, like the 3 schools that the X-Kans claim (as listed by others above) but their lineages are not widely accepted as completely authentic. Togakure has been considered highly suspect while Gyokushin & Kumogakure are under question because their lineage has gaps and the organizational structure has been heavily altered in modern times.

    Most Koryu underwent some kind of change during the Meiji Restoration (1868+), and you can get an awesome viewpoint of this and the pressure that created these changes in Donn Draegers works.

    However, the oldest Koryu do have lots of goodies that have not changed. And unlike modern organizations that have 'modernized' the teachings/methods (Buj is good example of this), these Koryu schools are adamant about preserving their history and clarity, for tradition and cultural reasons.

    Long and short of it = no ninja schools exist. Some folks teach pieces and most honest practitioners (and those good ones in the x-kans) will point this out themselves. If someone is nutriding the ninja angle......well its pretty obvious what they are full of. (cough cough ...ashidawannabeloser... cough)
  3. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 9:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Takamatsu and Kano were documented as friends but there is nothing in any text that I have found that said that anything from Takamatsu-den schools went into the Kodokan syllabus.
    I haven't found any similarities in techniques either, BJK has much more atemi waza and less "real" throws, the majority of throws are actually joint locks with a bit of throwing incorporated.

    Shuriken are really not that unique to ninjutsu, there is a lot of traditional kenjutsu/jujutsu/yawara/whateva that incorporates bo shuriken and other such things. The actual techniques of gotonpo, explosives, and poisons are the most unique and the only real reason anything is "ninjutsu". All of those techniques have been made obsolete by modern technology and the new and improved can be found in the majority of special operations training.
  4. Toby Christensen is offline

    Martial mediocrite

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    Dec 2002
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    Australia
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    Posted On:
    10/08/2005 6:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Using bag as aggro outlet

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DubhGhaill
    Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
    Um...

    Is that the name of one ryu, or several?
    What am I?:

    I am ignorant, thieving, lying, hypocrital, violent and thoroughly self obssessed. I steal from others to make myself look better, only to make the item or information worse.

    I go on and on and ON about how brave and strong and brilliant and wealthy I am, but in the end I'm all mouth and no trousers.

    That's right children, I'm your average AMERICUNT! and I exemplify AMERICA!:911flag:

    :occasion1

    JohnnyCache's "retort" proving how much he knows about medicine and geography and First World countries:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=78188&page=22

    Yes, through persistent lack of work and the cultivation of ignorance, he is a true American.
  5. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2005 8:34am

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is the oldest recognized martial art in Japan and is very well thought of. They are homebased out of Narita city here and they are very strict on quality control.

    Not in anyway associated with the BJK or another ninjutsu organization.
  6. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/08/2005 2:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also the TSKR teaches serval forms of JMA form kenjutsu, iaijutsu, bojutsu, naginatajutsu, sojutsu, taijutsu/jujutsu, shurikenjutsu, chikujojutsu, gunbaiho, in-yo kigaku to ninjutsu.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. FighterJones is offline
    FighterJones's Avatar

    Registered User

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2005 10:12pm


     Style: LARPing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When Im older, i wanna learn some ot this tenshin sodan katoria shinto-ryu stuff.
  8. Spunky is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/09/2005 11:30pm


     Style: Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've read the claims of Takamatsu and Kano being friends, but most research on the subject seems to indicate that he was more likely one of many guest instructors. DakotaJudo has retorted the supposed Takamatsu-den/Judo connection, but I can't remember the details.

    The material I've seen on Gyokushin ryu states that it is thought to have come from (or is based on) Gyokko ryu, and focused on espionage but was known for its sutemi and nagenawa. It was supposedly not openly taught until it mixed with other ryu under the Toda clan. I've heard Gyokushin translated as something like "The Heart of Gyokko" but I don't know how "correct" that is... it makes sense though looking at Gyokushin ryu as being a manifestation of Gyokko's "ninjutsu" elements, and sort of explains that even if it was its own line it was never really independent.

    There is a Hon Tai Gyokushin ryu linked to Gyokko ryu as well, which changed to Izumo ryu??

    There is also mention that Ueno Takashi claimed to be soke of Gyokushin ryu and gave a completely different lineage that started with Sasaki but never passed to the Toda clan at all. It also states that he may now be dead and his version passed to a Kaminage Shigemi.

    And I swear I've read somewhere that the Gyokushin ryu in the Bujinkan is not to be confused with Gyokushin ryu jujutsu (despite both being known for sutemi), but I can't find the source.
  9. DubhGhaill is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2005 8:39am


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Angry_Spastic
    Um...

    Is that the name of one ryu, or several?
    I believe it's also commonly called 'Katori Shinto Ryu', for short.
  10. DubhGhaill is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2005 8:47am


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The complete school program covered 12 techniques

    Ken-jutsu
    Techniques of the Katana
    Bo-jutsu
    Techniques of the stick
    Naginata-jutsu
    Techniques of the spear
    Iai-jutsu
    Techniques of cutting at
    unsheathing Ryoto-jutsu
    Techniques of two Katana
    Kodachi-jutsu
    Techniques of the small Katana
    Soo-Jutsu
    Techniques of the long pike
    (called YARI)
    Shuriken-jutsu
    Techniques of the throw
    of steel peaks Ju-jutsu
    Technique of combat
    with bare hands
    Nin-jutsu
    Techniques of espionage
    Sen-jutsu
    Strategy
    Chikujo-jutsu
    Technique of construction
    of fortifications
    http://www.aikibudo.com/akbd/version...ory/katori.htm
    Last edited by DubhGhaill; 10/16/2005 9:04am at .
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