Which Ninjitsu ryu are legit?

**Toby Christensen** · Posted On: 10/06/2005 6:43pm

Given that I am researching, which schools of ninjitsu are real and which are fake?
Ashida Kim's an obvious posterior helmet, but what about other people?

**DubhGhaill** · Posted On: 10/06/2005 8:38pm

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu

**MONGO** · Posted On: 10/06/2005 9:04pm

2 of the BJK ryu are verified as authentic. Togakure ryu is not though.

**thomaspaine** · Posted On: 10/06/2005 11:41pm

I was under the impression that the only legit ninjutsu ryus were Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokoshin, which are 3 of the nine Bujinkan schools, and even these are a little questionable because Hatsumi refused to turn over the scrolls for review to become an official koryu. I've never seen anything I thought to be close to a legitimate claim from any other ninjutsu ryuha.

**MONGO** · Posted On: 10/06/2005 11:51pm

I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.

**thomaspaine** · Posted On: 10/07/2005 1:45am

As I understand it, Hatsumi refused to turn over the Togakure Ryu scrolls over to the Koryu council because of an oath he made to the previous grandmaster. Hatsumi says that he doesn't care because he doesn't consider the Bujinkan to be koryu anyways, he thinks it's a "living" art. Regardless, I've met people who claimed to have seen the Togakure scrolls, so at least they have a scroll, which is more than I can say for any other arts claiming to be ninjutsu. I.E. dux ryu, any koga ryu, etc, Not that the scroll couldn't be faked or anything though. Don't know anything about conflicts with the teaching methods though. I was under the impression that a couple of the jujutsu schools in the Bujinkan were considered koryu.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 10/07/2005 3:37am

Originally Posted by MONGO

I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.

I genuinely curious. What qualifies an art for Koryu status, and why would the Bujinkan's training methods bar it ?

**Ronin** · Posted On: 10/07/2005 7:12am

Legit "ninjutsu" ryu ?
Hmmm, considering that, in the "old days" ninjutsu was part of the curriculm in a bujutsu ryu, its hard to say what is legit ninjutsu OUTSIDE of those Ryu like the TSKSR and the Yagyu-Shinkakge ryu and so on.
Even the Takenouguchi -ryu ( sp?) has some "ninjutsu" in it.

Current "unofficial" stance is that Hatsumi formalised some legit bujutsu ryu like the Koto and the Gyoko, into his Togokure-ryu system, so, offically, anything from the Togakure is not "legit" per se.

But as with all things ninja, no one really cares all that much.

**Gezere** · Posted On: 10/07/2005 7:45am

Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.

**Ronin** · Posted On: 10/07/2005 7:50am

Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA

Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.

I have heard this too...
Hard to say what is "truth" and what is "heresay".
Thing is, from the looks of things ( from the outside looking in), it may well be that "ninjutsu" was just a name given to a situation where jujutsu/kenjutsu/ etc. techniques were used in a certain way.

I mean, a samurai using kenjutsu in a "ninja like fashin" could be labled as doing "ninjutsu".

Fact is, the TSKSR teaches "ninjutsu-like" techniques such as shuriken-jutsu and the yagu-shinkage ryu has "ninja-to" type techniques also.

Whatever that means.