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  1. Toby Christensen is offline

    Martial mediocrite

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    Dec 2002
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    Australia
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2005 6:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Using bag as aggro outlet

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Which Ninjitsu ryu are legit?

    Given that I am researching, which schools of ninjitsu are real and which are fake?
    Ashida Kim's an obvious posterior helmet, but what about other people?
    What am I?:

    I am ignorant, thieving, lying, hypocrital, violent and thoroughly self obssessed. I steal from others to make myself look better, only to make the item or information worse.

    I go on and on and ON about how brave and strong and brilliant and wealthy I am, but in the end I'm all mouth and no trousers.

    That's right children, I'm your average AMERICUNT! and I exemplify AMERICA!:911flag:

    :occasion1

    JohnnyCache's "retort" proving how much he knows about medicine and geography and First World countries:
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...=78188&page=22

    Yes, through persistent lack of work and the cultivation of ignorance, he is a true American.
  2. DubhGhaill is offline

    Registered Member

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    May 2005
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    Santa Barbara
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2005 8:38pm


     Style: MMA/JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu
    Last edited by DubhGhaill; 10/06/2005 8:43pm at .
  3. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    May 2005
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2005 9:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    2 of the BJK ryu are verified as authentic. Togakure ryu is not though.
  4. thomaspaine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2005
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    San Francisco, CA
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    191

    Posted On:
    10/06/2005 11:41pm


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was under the impression that the only legit ninjutsu ryus were Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokoshin, which are 3 of the nine Bujinkan schools, and even these are a little questionable because Hatsumi refused to turn over the scrolls for review to become an official koryu. I've never seen anything I thought to be close to a legitimate claim from any other ninjutsu ryuha.
  5. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2005 11:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

    Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.
  6. thomaspaine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 1:45am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As I understand it, Hatsumi refused to turn over the Togakure Ryu scrolls over to the Koryu council because of an oath he made to the previous grandmaster. Hatsumi says that he doesn't care because he doesn't consider the Bujinkan to be koryu anyways, he thinks it's a "living" art. Regardless, I've met people who claimed to have seen the Togakure scrolls, so at least they have a scroll, which is more than I can say for any other arts claiming to be ninjutsu. I.E. dux ryu, any koga ryu, etc, Not that the scroll couldn't be faked or anything though. Don't know anything about conflicts with the teaching methods though. I was under the impression that a couple of the jujutsu schools in the Bujinkan were considered koryu.
  7. Cullion is offline
    Cullion's Avatar

    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Oxford, UK
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 3:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    I have heard that there is lineage problems with Togakure ryu from the Koryu council here in Japan and the entire BJK as a whole won't stand the test because of the teaching methods.

    Kukishinden ryu is a Koryu art because it is so closely related to Kukishin Ryu which is a registered koryu here in Japan.
    I genuinely curious. What qualifies an art for Koryu status, and why would the Bujinkan's training methods bar it ?
  8. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Canada
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 7:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Legit "ninjutsu" ryu ?
    Hmmm, considering that, in the "old days" ninjutsu was part of the curriculm in a bujutsu ryu, its hard to say what is legit ninjutsu OUTSIDE of those Ryu like the TSKSR and the Yagyu-Shinkakge ryu and so on.
    Even the Takenouguchi -ryu ( sp?) has some "ninjutsu" in it.

    Current "unofficial" stance is that Hatsumi formalised some legit bujutsu ryu like the Koto and the Gyoko, into his Togokure-ryu system, so, offically, anything from the Togakure is not "legit" per se.

    But as with all things ninja, no one really cares all that much.
  9. Gezere is offline
    Gezere's Avatar

    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 7:45am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

    I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2005 7:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    Hastumi wanted the schools of the Buj to be recognized as Koryu bujutsu but in order to do that he has submit mateiral to a commity of sorts. It not that Hatsumi refused to turn over anything but that some of the material didn't stand up to the scrutiny of scholars. Now this pretains mainly to the art labeld NINJUSTSU. Other schools in the Buj are verifiably legit.

    I myself and also starting to question the Gyokushin Ryu school. The Buj labels it as NINJUTSU but a school of the same name has been label withthe more approriated title of JUJUTSU. This is the same school that Minoru Mochizuki studied as a kid. Both say that one of the forte of Gyokushin was sutemi waza. It is said that the sutemi of Kodokan Judo comes from Gyokushin as well, but neither Kano nor Mochizuki ever mention ninjutsu. The Buj says Takamatsu taught Kano but it seems odd since they also say Takamatsu didn't like judo when he saw it, so if anyone can clarify this please do.
    I have heard this too...
    Hard to say what is "truth" and what is "heresay".
    Thing is, from the looks of things ( from the outside looking in), it may well be that "ninjutsu" was just a name given to a situation where jujutsu/kenjutsu/ etc. techniques were used in a certain way.

    I mean, a samurai using kenjutsu in a "ninja like fashin" could be labled as doing "ninjutsu".

    Fact is, the TSKSR teaches "ninjutsu-like" techniques such as shuriken-jutsu and the yagu-shinkage ryu has "ninja-to" type techniques also.

    Whatever that means.
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