221989 Bullies, 4215 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 35
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 12 34 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Cullion is offline
    Cullion's Avatar

    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Oxford, UK
    Posts
    6,525

    Posted On:
    9/25/2005 6:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by AFS
    But the mere fact that people who do nothing else but watching the telly may improve their fitness by drinking creatine...
    I am sure the sales in the UK must have gone through the roof.
    Christ, what exactly is in this creatine stuff ?
  2. warnerj5000 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Posts
    357

    Posted On:
    9/25/2005 4:30pm


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, I recently started taking creatine.. I haven't really been doing the loading thing, since I heard it's not really necessary.

    I read that the creatine gets absorbed into your bloodstream and stays there for about an hour and a half before it's eliminated, and I read it was good to take it before a workout, so I've been taking some before my muay thai and jujutsu sessions.

    I don't know if it is taking effect alredy, or if it's purely psychological, but my muscles don't seem to be getting tired, I have more energy, and I can work harder. Either way, I feel like it's improving my workouts, and so far I've gotten no side effects.
  3. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    9/26/2005 11:12am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Short answer:
    For short-term, high-intensity, repetitive exercise, creatine = good.
    Most anything else, creatine = expensive pee.

    The science:
    There are three systems for ATP regeneration in muscle - used to regenerate ATP consumed during muscle contraction - phosphagen, glycolysis and oxidation phosphorylation.

    The glycolytic system converts glucose to pyruvate (and ultimately, lactate) and is most active during anaerobic exercise - it's not dependent on oxygen. At aerobic exercise levels, the oxidative pathways use pyruvate (and, mostly in muscle, lipids) to regenerate ATP - this process is dependent on oxygen.

    For the most part, exercise involves both glycolytic and oxidative processes, depending on intensity level; higher intensities are less oxidative, for various reasons.

    However, and more important for this discussion, we can pretty much ignore the glycolytic and oxidative processes during the first few seconds of exercise - these processes require multiple enzymative pathways.

    During the first few seconds of exercise, ATP is regenerated by transferring a phosphate group from creatine-phosphate;. This is a single enzyme step, much faster than the others.

    The drawback is that there is a limited supply of creatine-phosphate in muscles. Once it's depleted, energy can only come from the other systems.

    The creatine-phosphate system is generally only good for about 10 seconds, but it can be 10 seconds of very intense exercise. This is the kind of exercise body-builders and sprinters tend towards - short burst of activity followed by a period of recovery (for CP, about 5-10 minutes).

    Creatine supplementation allows muscles to store somewhat more CP, which extends that short period of intense activity.

    So, creatine supplementation will help if you're engaged in short, intense effort. This will help build muscle mass, if you do the correct exercises. If your sports performance requires intense efforts of a minute or two (as in sparring), creatine may be of some benet (other than benefits of strength gains from weight lifting) - the creatine may extend the burst period (e.g. if creatine supplmentation extends the phosphagen system activity from 10 to 12 seconds, that 2 seconds less of glycolysis, and the associated lactate production).

    If your training is mostly endurance, creatine will probably be of little benefit - at least, probably not worth the cost; there are better nutritional methods for endurance activities.

    The other drawback of creatine is that it is a fairly moblie compound and is quickly excreted, so you need to take in about 20 g per day for the first few days to build up an useful level in the muscles, and 5g per day, every day, after that, to maintain the effects.

    PS. Forgot about caffeine.

    Caffeine has some effect on lipid mobilization, so may improve endurance (i.e. aerobic) performance; the opposite end of the energy spectrum from creatine. However, this effect is limited to athletes who do not regularly use caffeine.

    As stated earlier, the diuretic effects of caffeine are probably counter-productive to creatine.

    One study that attempted to test the interaction of creatine and caffeine:
    J. Appl Physiol. 1996 Feb;80(2):452-7.

    Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading.

    Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P.

    This study aimed to compare the effects of oral creatine (Cr) supplementation with creatine supplementation in combination with caffeine (Cr+C) on muscle phosphocreatine (PCr) level and performance in healthy male volunteers (n = 9). Before and after 6 days of placebo, Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1), or Cr (0.5 g x kg-1 x day-1) + C (5 mg x kg-1 x day-1) supplementation, 31P-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy of the gastrocnemius muscle and a maximal intermittent exercise fatigue test of the knee extensors on an isokinetic dynamometer were performed. The exercise consisted of three consecutive maximal isometric contractions and three interval series of 90, 80, and 50 maximal voluntary contractions performed with a rest interval of 2 min between the series. Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr+C increased (P < 0.05) muscle PCr concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% (P < 0.05) by Cr but was not changed by Cr+C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the 2-min rest between the exercise bouts. The data show that Cr supplementation elevates muscle PCr concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. This ergogenic effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake.
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 9/26/2005 11:46am at . Reason: Added PS.
  4. sidran is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    504

    Posted On:
    9/26/2005 11:58am


     Style: Kung fu, Jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you're really going to go with the creatine, personally, I would get off the caffeine, for the reasons given above (it's a diuretic). It's generally a good idea to stay off caffeine anyway; I don't think it's generally healthy to be drinking caffeine regularly. I just substitute it with more water (especially in the morning), less excess fats, less low glycemic carbs, more high glycemic carbs, and more protein foods (like chicken- my preference), and of course at least 8 hours of sleep each night. It works really well, and is good for you anyway. Plus, if you are using creatine you will need to make sure you get plenty of water (as was said before).

    I've never had any experience with creatine, but I do stay away from caffeine as much as possible. After I adjusted my diet like I said above, I found myself much more alert and awake throughout the day and felt much better than if I used coffee or some other caffeinated drink.


    EDIT: That article shows a good point, dj. I believe that is the answer you're looking for, warner.
    Last edited by sidran; 9/26/2005 12:05pm at .
  5. daGorilla is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA area
    Posts
    1,043

    Posted On:
    9/26/2005 12:29pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sidran
    If you're really going to go with the creatine, personally, I would get off the caffeine, for the reasons given above (it's a diuretic). It's generally a good idea to stay off caffeine anyway; I don't think it's generally healthy to be drinking caffeine regularly. I just substitute it with more water (especially in the morning), less excess fats, less low glycemic carbs, more high glycemic carbs, and more protein foods (like chicken- my preference), and of course at least 8 hours of sleep each night. It works really well, and is good for you anyway. Plus, if you are using creatine you will need to make sure you get plenty of water (as was said before).

    I've never had any experience with creatine, but I do stay away from caffeine as much as possible. After I adjusted my diet like I said above, I found myself much more alert and awake throughout the day and felt much better than if I used coffee or some other caffeinated drink.


    EDIT: That article shows a good point, dj. I believe that is the answer you're looking for, warner.
    Everything in moderation. There is nothing wrong with coffee -- besides, wait until you have kids, full time jobs, etc. -- Try rolling out of bed at 5aM after being up all night with a cranky 6 month old.... you'll be begging for caffeine -- or meth.

    - daGorilla =D
  6. sidran is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    504

    Posted On:
    9/26/2005 12:35pm


     Style: Kung fu, Jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I got your point, man. What I posted is the ideal (what I strive for). I'm not perfect, and that's my fault. But I know what you mean. I see that with my father even right now. My little brothers are still at home (5th and 9th grade) so he has to be up early enough to get them ready for school at around 5 or 6 am, plus he usually doesn't get to bed until 1 or 2 am at night because of his work. Coffee is a staple at my house.

    If you don't get enough sleep, the diet will help, and if necessary, one or two cup of coffee spread out in the morning helps out really well, speaking from experience. I've read that drinking a lot of coffee in the morning quickly in one shot is worse for you and not as effective than if you drink less, and spread it out throughout the day. Of course, moderation is a good thing.
  7. daGorilla is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA area
    Posts
    1,043

    Posted On:
    9/26/2005 4:10pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sidran
    I got your point, man. What I posted is the ideal (what I strive for). I'm not perfect, and that's my fault. But I know what you mean. I see that with my father even right now. My little brothers are still at home (5th and 9th grade) so he has to be up early enough to get them ready for school at around 5 or 6 am, plus he usually doesn't get to bed until 1 or 2 am at night because of his work. Coffee is a staple at my house.

    If you don't get enough sleep, the diet will help, and if necessary, one or two cup of coffee spread out in the morning helps out really well, speaking from experience. I've read that drinking a lot of coffee in the morning quickly in one shot is worse for you and not as effective than if you drink less, and spread it out throughout the day. Of course, moderation is a good thing.
    I've always tried to moderate my caffeine consumption -- I always pretty much a 1-cup a day kind of guy. I even quit periodically for a week or a month, just to make sure I can (it went pretty well actually).

    Then my wife and I had our son, and that went to hell. I don't think I'm as bad a coffee hound as some, but I do try to keep my abuse in check. :)

    Oh well, I don't drink or smoke, so maybe coffee (and cursing like a sailor) are my vices.

    -daGorilla :)
  8. Warpath is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    115

    Posted On:
    9/27/2005 2:26pm


     Style: TKD, western boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never drink coffee, but I drink a cup of tea with my lunch about an hour and a half before my workout. Should I cut the tea if I'm going creatine, or is it not necessary since tea has less caffeine than coffee?
  9. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    9/27/2005 4:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Warpath
    I never drink coffee, but I drink a cup of tea with my lunch about an hour and a half before my workout. Should I cut the tea if I'm going creatine, or is it not necessary since tea has less caffeine than coffee?
    The more important question is, probably, what is your workout? From that, you can answer whether you even need to go with creatine.

    Creatine does work, but only with specific types of training - if you are training for martial arts you are most likely doing training that is counter to the type of training most improved with creatine. If you're doing any kind of endurance, you probably don't need creatine, and may even be cancelling out the effects of creatine.

    One other thing to consider, with the caffeine, is that the effects of caffeine on exercise are tested on "caffeine-naive" athletes - those who do not regularly consume caffeine. If you regularly take a cup of tea at lunch, I would doubt it makes much difference.

    But who knows? That highlights a problem with the whole concept of nutritional supplements - it's very hard to test, hard to even understand what's going on, with all the possible interactions. I've spend a few years teaching (as a lab instructor) human physiology, and reading the literature I have a hard time making sense of the results.

    And I think the supplement industry plays on that confusion - sure, some supplements do produce results; but sometimes only with very tightly controlled diets and training regimes - at least, that's my impression from the literature.

    If you're a normal person with no ambitions to elite level competition, you're probably better served just sticking to a normal, heathy diet - spend that creatine money on a date.
  10. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    9/27/2005 4:09pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sidran
    less low glycemic carbs, more high glycemic carbs
    Won't argue with the rest, but on this I have to say yes-and-no.

    When you're trying to recover glycogen stores, as in early morning (when liver glycogen is low) or after an endurance workout (when muscle glycogen is low), then high glycemic carbs are desirable.

    But in general, and especially prior to a workout, low glycemic carbs are preferred.

    The spike in blood sugar, from high glycemic carbs, will trigger insulin release - this promotes sugar uptake into insulin responsive tissues (like muscle), ultimately lowering blood sugar. Post-exercise, when muscles are depleted, this is a good thing.

    But not so good when you are active - being active, especially exercise, is counter-regulatory to insulin processes.
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 12 34 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.