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  1. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2005 9:53pm


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Poop-Loops
    Thank you, you have just proven that you are FULL OF ****. Classic responses by people who are full of **** are:

    "We are TOO DEADLY for the ring"

    "Elbow to back of the neck/spine will stop a takedown! It's all you need!"

    Before you say it, here are some more:

    "Grappling doesn't work vs multiple opponents!"

    "Grappling doesn't work on the street, there is broken glass and lava!"

    "MMA is just a sport."

    "I would bite and gouge eyes to get out of grappling!"

    ETC.

    Oh, and by the way, UFC pays people more to keep the fight standing, so I don't see how that's helping grapplers.

    PL

    Whats funny is the Gracies in their book say that JJ is not a Multiple oppnent art.

    POOP,

    mighty awesome keyboard warrior skills you have.
  2. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2005 10:37pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shoushu energy
    and for the record.. i wasn't questioning the validity of you taking classes for 2yrs or whatever time you wrote..
    just the odasity(sp) of how you can get on the net and speak so openly disrespectful about a strong martial art....
    to me thats a sign of a coward and i'm glad you left the Moore's system.
    Shoushu energy, I know its hard to sit there and watch your system being criticized and insulted by a former student and a bunch of strangers, but try and identify the real problem here. It's easy to get sucked up in a flame war with pride and ego looking over your shoulder, but nothing constructive ever comes from that.

    Regardless of the actual quality and effectiveness of Shou Shu, you have a former student claiming inadequate teaching and commercial abuse. With an organization of Shou Shu's size, it is only a matter of time before corrupt individuals see the potential behind commercializing the system. Even BJJ, a system lauded on this forum, is beginning to show similar signs of abuse.

    Put yourself in trfcrugby's shoes. You put your trust in what you identify as experts, learn a system and love it, only to be disappointed by it later. He feels he wasted his time and money, and feels betrayed over learning something that was deceptively painted as something else. He doesn't want others to fall prey to the same scheme, so he goes to a place where prevention is the name of the game: Bullshido.net. Of course he's going to be open about his experiences. even if such an experience never happens again in the Shou Shu world, it happens all the time in martial arts, and the public should be warned.

    Now instead of getting angry, realize that you have a reported incident of bad teaching in your system. It would be more constructive to try and hunt it down instead of denying its existence. Even if the claims are fraud - if trfcrugby is exaggerating, and if a member on this board didn't beat up 3 Shou Shu blackbelts - the practice of ensuring quality teaching and evaluating the system every now and then is still beneficial to students and the integrity of your martial art. Can you imagine how dangerous it would be if trfcrugby's instructor actually exists? And if that instructor has been teaching since 1988??? Rather than simply ignoring trfcrugby's report and learning later that it was true, it's probably a better idea to check it out and be safe in the long run.

    Don't let a bunch of idiots sweep you into a flame war and blind you from what should be done for the stability of your system and students.

    As for not giving names out on the internet, put yourself in trfcrugby's position. Would you want to give your name to people that you feel cheated you and ripped you off? Also giving out personal info on the internet without caution is never a good idea. Hopefully trfcrugby might be able to help you without having to do just that.
  3. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2005 10:58pm


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Shoushu energy, I know its hard to sit there and watch your system being criticized and insulted by a former student and a bunch of strangers, but try and identify the real problem here. It's easy to get sucked up in a flame war with pride and ego looking over your shoulder, but nothing constructive ever comes from that.

    Regardless of the actual quality and effectiveness of Shou Shu, you have a former student claiming inadequate teaching and commercial abuse. With an organization of Shou Shu's size, it is only a matter of time before corrupt individuals see the potential behind commercializing the system. Even BJJ, a system lauded on this forum, is beginning to show similar signs of abuse.

    Put yourself in trfcrugby's shoes. You put your trust in what you identify as experts, learn a system and love it, only to be disappointed by it later. He feels he wasted his time and money, and feels betrayed over learning something that was deceptively painted as something else. He doesn't want others to fall prey to the same scheme, so he goes to a place where prevention is the name of the game: Bullshido.net. Of course he's going to be open about his experiences. even if such an experience never happens again in the Shou Shu world, it happens all the time in martial arts, and the public should be warned.

    Now instead of getting angry, realize that you have a reported incident of bad teaching in your system. It would be more constructive to try and hunt it down instead of denying its existence. Even if the claims are fraud - if trfcrugby is exaggerating, and if a member on this board didn't beat up 3 Shou Shu blackbelts - the practice of ensuring quality teaching and evaluating the system every now and then is still beneficial to students and the integrity of your martial art. Can you imagine how dangerous it would be if trfcrugby's instructor actually exists? And if that instructor has been teaching since 1988??? Rather than simply ignoring trfcrugby's report and learning later that it was true, it's probably a better idea to check it out and be safe in the long run.

    Don't let a bunch of idiots sweep you into a flame war and blind you from what should be done for the stability of your system and students.

    As for not giving names out on the internet, put yourself in trfcrugby's position. Would you want to give your name to people that you feel cheated you and ripped you off? Also giving out personal info on the internet without caution is never a good idea. Hopefully trfcrugby might be able to help you without having to do just that.
    True, 1988 where did he go to class, who was his instructor?

    There are students who show up and dont listen, they just take the bare minimum and expect to be a black belt(i believe he was one of them) you dont advance if you dont show you have learned what was taught.

    I was apart of the art back in 1986 there was alot of head instructors that were removed from schools because of bad practice from then to the 1990's. My original instructor was one of them. i returned almost 2 yrs ago and the system is still the same. 12 yrs later it is still the same, minor changes to teaching and material, but still the same.


    the original poster seems to have a playground complex. he didnt get what he dreamed about at night(he even said a Gi made him look like a bad ass). So he now over 17 yrs later has a bad taste in his mouth and wants to let everyone know that he took his ball to another playground.
  4. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2005 11:33pm


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by trfcrugby
    err...thanks but no thanks. Gold chains and medallions went out some time ago.

    So....

    My second lesson started much like the first. I was drilled on the salutation and bow, horse stance, and kicks. Then came the token history lesson. Da' Shifu Moore was a baaaaaad man. I was told about how he could disarm a man with a gun from like 15 feet away. Break an arm with a block. Someday, if I paid the money, I too could go to camp and meet him.

    The history lesson concluded, we moved on the first of 1.6 million techniques I would need to learn. You see, each belt had a little booklet, with a specific list of techniques. The instructors would run through the list, and check off the moves they covered in that lesson, and in time, all of the little boxes were checked and certified. I recall asking why we trained against a scripted attack, i.e. the stereotypical wild haymaker or the rear shoulder grab. All of the techniques kind of blend together. I can sum them up in pretty much one description. Opponent charges you in some insane, blatantly obvious way. Block, redirecting his movement. Then choose one of the many Moore’s Special Attacks: Eye Gouge, Throat Chop, Arm Break, Neck Twist, Knee Smash, Face Stomp. I started to realize why they thought their art was so elite. Every technique, if executed as planned, would result in grievous injury to your opponent. Of course, this is all dependent on the opponent telegraphing his movement, not resisting, and above all, not suing the hell out of you for ripping his eyeball out in a bar brawl.

    Weeks turned into months, and soon I was moving right along the belt path to enlightenment. I attended one private lesson each week, along with several group classes. I inquired about sparring, and I was told that we didn’t do that until we were higher rank. Too deadly for untrained people to spar. Right. So I asked about tournaments, since I was just dying to try out this art on someone, without getting into a street fight for no reason. Oh no….Moore’s has been BANNED from tournaments. That is what they told me. Banned. The art was too fluid, too unconventional, and the strict rules of the tournaments limited the Shou Shu fighter too much. No, sir, we do not attend tournaments.

    About this time, I was a solid purple belt with three stripes to my blue belt. My girlfriend’s brother at the time was a brown belt, and if you have read their belt descriptions, a brown belt is damn near invincible to anything other than a higher Shou Shu’er. Now you may recall that I was also a wrestler, so I always brought up the ground fighting aspects of a street fight, and without fail, I was told that Shou Shu was too devastating, and the fight would not last long enough to go to the ground. So…one day Mr. Brown Belt comes into my GF’s bedroom, and starts throwing kicks at me, saying things like, “What would you do?”. Well my friends, I shot a single leg takedown. When we got up from the floor, he said that would never happen in a real fight. Sure, just keep telling yourself that.

    Finally, one afternoon I show up and there are Camp Flyers all over the place. Pay some fee (don’t recall how much), get two days of training, a BBQ, and of course, the deluxe embroidered Camp Patch. Naturally, I sign up, because it’s what everyone does.

    Camp day arrives, and I trek up to the campground full of other Shou Shu’ers. Hundreds of them, mostly overweight, wearing the same cool t-shirts I had. The days consists of massive groups classes and “demos” by black belts. A demo consists of a highly scripted, albeit fast, technique that makes it look as though the BB is anticipating the movements of the attacker, much like a Jedi would. Then crown jewel is the gun disarming demo, where a black belt confronts a man with a cap gun from about 15 feet away. Time and again, the black belt is able to close the distance and chop the pistol out of the other man’s hands before he can get a shot off. Oddly, only other black belts were used as gunmen.

    As night fell over the camp, groups of students gathered to discuss (i.e. brag) about their training. I recall one brown belt approaching a group of about 10 lower belts, myself included. He stepped into the center of the group, and proceeded to tell us how he would be able to defeat us all at once, and he went so far as to walk through the entire process of beating us down (in slow motion). I actually felt sorry for the guy, when I realized that he seriously thought he could defeat 10 men in a fight. At one time. Crazy ****.

    In time, I moved beyond that magical 50 mile limit, and my annual contract was null and void. At first I felt strangely odd not training there anymore. That all changed when I joined the military and we had our first weekend brawl on the lawn behind the dorms. After getting my head pounded by a friend of mine while standing in that ridiculous horse stance, I resorted back to my wrestling, and found that I won more than I lost, at least among other 18-20 year old recruits.

    Fast forward to the present. I am now training BJJ and American boxing (some Muay Thai for good measure), in the gym 4-5 days a week. After wasting two years and a fair amount of money, I am finally training at gym that offers sparring and a system that is effective. Funny thing is, we still hear from new fighters that the Moore’s guys are always telling people how they would destroy an MMA fighter. Now before someone steps up and says…hey there is a Shou Shu guy fighting MMA…yeah I know. But check his stats. All of his fights won were by submission. Shou Shu has none (read: zero, nada, zip) submissions. Lucky for him, he also crosstrains BJJ.

    McDojo? I think so. Contracts, mysterious history, “deadly” techniques, no sparring, and an almost religious allegiance to the school when full indoctrinated,

    That’s my story. Thanks. I guess I am a ***** for not staying. Damn. I remember that when I get my next Kimura. I could have been doing the mighty Cobra Strike instead…
    you were there for two yrs and didnt even get your blue belt. you must be as stupid as you sound. Spar, I have sparred in Shou Shu from day one. Tournaments, if we want to go to a tournament we can go. Its not a big school thing its done by the student on his own. We had a White belt(no previous MA training) go to bakersfield 's order of the dragon tournament last yr and he beat a black belt from their art for 1st place in sparring.

    I dont know where your info came from other than the D and D fantasy world you lived in back then. I dont recall ever being told i couldnt do tournaments and couldnt Spar.

    You actually thought the fighting stance was suppose to be used in a fight, you deserved having your ass handed to you by your buddies.

    LOL your to funny.
  5. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    9/20/2005 11:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shou Shu pracititioners -

    I unfortunately don't live in California, so I can't see what kind of classes you partake in. Since there's plenty of you know frequenting our forums, can you describe your training methods and atmosphere.

    What ranges of combat do you cover?

    Do you guys do lots of forms?

    What kind of sparring rules do you guys use, what kind of protective gear, etc.

    Do you guys do alot of drills with focus mitts, targets, bag work, etc (sometimes reffered to as more "modern" training methods) Or is it more traditional type of training?

    Do you feel that cardio and fitness is not a requirement or are most classes also designed to keep you in reasonable shape?

    Do you guys do any sort of body conditioning? (ie smacking stuff to build up knuckles, killing nerves in your shins, etc)

    What kind of tournaments do you guys enter (if you compete) and how has your training fared for you under different rules (point sparring, full contact, etc etc)?

    Anything else you can contribute would be nice too. I've actually no idea what your system is about, and in fact until mantis1999 came on the site, I had never heard about Shou Shu before.
  6. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2005 12:14am


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Shou Shu pracititioners -

    I unfortunately don't live in California, so I can't see what kind of classes you partake in. Since there's plenty of you know frequenting our forums, can you describe your training methods and atmosphere.

    What ranges of combat do you cover?

    Do you guys do lots of forms?

    What kind of sparring rules do you guys use, what kind of protective gear, etc.

    Do you guys do alot of drills with focus mitts, targets, bag work, etc (sometimes reffered to as more "modern" training methods) Or is it more traditional type of training?

    Do you feel that cardio and fitness is not a requirement or are most classes also designed to keep you in reasonable shape?

    Do you guys do any sort of body conditioning? (ie smacking stuff to build up knuckles, killing nerves in your shins, etc)

    What kind of tournaments do you guys enter (if you compete) and how has your training fared for you under different rules (point sparring, full contact, etc etc)?

    Anything else you can contribute would be nice too. I've actually no idea what your system is about, and in fact until mantis1999 came on the site, I had never heard about Shou Shu before.

    there is a form for every belt. all encompass a thought on fighting, there is a reason behind all the movements we do in our forms.

    Sparring in Class for me and those that i spar with are we go until one makes solid contact. we then stop reflect on what happend, how we got hit and try to figure out how to stop it from happening again. We use gloves, shin and feet pads and mouth piece.

    we use bags and focus mitts every class as well as doing the material on a person.

    Cardio is a part of training, its also up to the individual as to how hard they train in class.

    Body conditioning not a individual part of training, it actually from what i have noticed with my body is that it happens as our training progresses.


    Tournaments are the individual students desire, we have a couple of black belts in the cage as you have seen, and a few have entered the standard form tournaments. we actually train the student differently for tournaments(its a chess game) the mindset is different in tournaments than it is on the street.

    People say we teach kenpo/Kempo. but honestly I have had experience with kenpo and we are nothing like it hands on. visually it can be mistaken as kenpo in the school at a lower rank, but it is far from it at green and above.

    i only answered what i could fathom at this late hr of the night.
  7. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2005 12:15am


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    Shou Shu pracititioners -

    I unfortunately don't live in California, so I can't see what kind of classes you partake in. Since there's plenty of you know frequenting our forums, can you describe your training methods and atmosphere.

    What ranges of combat do you cover?

    Do you guys do lots of forms?

    What kind of sparring rules do you guys use, what kind of protective gear, etc.

    Do you guys do alot of drills with focus mitts, targets, bag work, etc (sometimes reffered to as more "modern" training methods) Or is it more traditional type of training?

    Do you feel that cardio and fitness is not a requirement or are most classes also designed to keep you in reasonable shape?

    Do you guys do any sort of body conditioning? (ie smacking stuff to build up knuckles, killing nerves in your shins, etc)

    What kind of tournaments do you guys enter (if you compete) and how has your training fared for you under different rules (point sparring, full contact, etc etc)?

    Anything else you can contribute would be nice too. I've actually no idea what your system is about, and in fact until mantis1999 came on the site, I had never heard about Shou Shu before.
    THere is a school in North Carolina
  8. ojgsxr6 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2005 12:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastApprentice
    THere is a school in North Carolina
    Is there a school in NY?
  9. BeastApprentice is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2005 12:47am


     Style: Moores Shou Shu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    Is there a school in NY?

    As far as i know there is no school in new york (Yet)... but i didnt know there was a school in North Dakota until two days ago.
  10. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    9/21/2005 1:01am

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BeastApprentice
    Whats funny is the Gracies in their book say that JJ is not a Multiple oppnent art.

    POOP,

    mighty awesome keyboard warrior skills you have.
    What's funny is that you are a fucking moron. It's just hilarious. Look at me laughing. Hahaha!

    I never claimed it was. People say "grappling doesn't work against multiple attackers" as if striking DID. Striking doesn't work either. It's not a kung fu movie where attackers come at you one at a time. They'll swarm you and you'll end up with a caved-in head anyway.

    PL
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