Problems making effective use of Rear Mount w/ Hooks or Body Triangle

**Camus** · Posted On: 9/14/2005 10:44pm

Maybe this sounds ridiculous to some of you, but it's a problem I've been having, albeit only with a few folks, one fellow in particular.

Basically, I've been working on my movement/sprawl and w/e and it's becoming pretty decent, although still decidedly sub-par. Anyway, I've been finding myself holding guys in side-mount less often than I used to as more advanced, but somewhat smaller guys are giving me their back and turtling, rather than trying to get the better of the take-down or escaping to guard. Now, at first, I was having trouble getting anything meaningful from them turtling, but I've improved that and can get hooks and body triangle pretty easy now.

And here we get to the root of the problem.

Attacking the neck. Let's take tonite for instance. Very tough training partner who I roll with often, maybe 20-30 lbs smaller, with a good sized neck. I got the body triangle TIGHT, he's not going anywhere. I attacked the neck, but him shrugging and lowering his chin made it a useless waste of energy and I was sore to begin with. He locks his arms together to defend as well. I try looping under pulling somewhat of a nelson to open for the choke and get some ok attempts, but I didn't have the leverage and couldn't muscle it. We rolled for a good half hour and I had a solid back mount for quite awhile a couple times, but just couldn't capitalize on it and it was frustrating. He escaped the first time by giving me his arm and I knew it, but wasn't going to just keep camping on his back like a jackass and went for it. The other time I went into mount. So I can hold the position well, just can't get the tap.

Any thoughts from the more experienced grapplers out there?

Thanks in advance.

**BSDaemon** · Posted On: 9/14/2005 11:55pm

I'm hardly more experienced.... But If you have a body triangle and one of their arms, you are in a perfect position to do an armbar. This is my bread and butter, especially when I'm rolling with no-neck having mo-fo's.

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**Meager** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 12:03am

I like going for armbars when I can't get their necks too. The only problem is you lose position if you miss it.

I wouldn't recommend it in training, but in a tournament just RNC their jaw or nose and crank the **** out of it.

**Camus** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 12:09am

Originally Posted by Meager

I like going for armbars when I can't get their necks too. The only problem is you lose position if you miss it.

This is just it, I was attempting the armbar, but the problem is, the guy knows this is my only option and defends and I lose the position and wind up in guard or fighting from the knees again.

On the other hand, I should probably practice my armbar more as it's one of my weaker submissions.

Anything else though for mixing it up? From other positions, I can threaten a couple submissions and thus, mix it up and keep the guy defensive until I slap something on (I know I have a very loose game, for better or worse), but with the backmount it's basically the nonexistant RNC (although, I did RNC the same guy once before, but it was with a lot of muscle) or an armbar and I don't feel aggressive or diverse enough to be a real threat aside from making it difficult for them to breathe with the body triangle, which is useless on any of the guys I roll with anyway.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 12:10am

I'm a clock man. Give me the back and I go for the clock.

The reason being, that although taking the back is an awesome position, sometimes all you can do is choke. And a lot of guys are damn good and defending their neck. So they trash a little bit, put you on your back while they arch theirs. Then they begin sliding, sliding, sliding, turning, turning, turning and bingo - now you are in your guard. Some of the guys at my gym are masters at this. So going for the back is sometimes just playing into their strategy.

Sometimes when I have someones back one arm goes under theirs and grabs the wrist on one side. Pretty standard really. You should be going for the choke with the other hand. Problem is, they are defending with that hand. So instead, when you get a grip on that wrist open up your back mount on that side and body lock them again trapping that arm inside. Pull your arm out and go for the choke with THAT side, and under the armpit wrist control on the OTHER side. So in essence you shut down one whole side, switch your wrist control, and then go for the choke on the side where their arm is trapped.

**Meager** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 12:15am

Originally Posted by Camus

Anything else though for mixing it up? From other positions, I can threaten a couple submissions and thus, mix it up and keep the guy defensive until I slap something on (I know I have a very loose game, for better or worse), but with the backmount it's basically the nonexistant RNC (although, I did RNC the same guy once before, but it was with a lot of muscle) or an armbar and I don't feel aggressive or diverse enough to be a real threat aside from making it difficult for them to breathe with the body triangle, which is useless on any of the guys I roll with anyway.

If your only options are RNC or armbar, you should ask your instructor to show you some gi chokes from back mount. In a gi I generally have a much easier time landing gi chokes than RNCs. This is assuming you wear a gi, of course.

**Camus** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 1:07am

Right, I should have mentioned that this was no-gi, although I do gi also, but with gi, much less problem with backmount b/c of aforementioned clock choke/gi chokes.

I will have to read Yrkoon's post again in the morning to try to visualize and make sense of it.

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 1:39am

No-gi I love to go to the back, because I can actually sink a choke. I prefer just to go to mount if I am rolling with a gi on. If I do end up on someone's back when we are rolling with the gi on . . . armbar it is! Someday I aspire to master the art of gi chokes, but genetics played a cruel trick on me and endowed me with grizzly bear paws instead of hands. Seriously, my hands are almost cartoonishly oversized. Or maybe I am just a klutzy white belt. Yeah, probably that.

**VikingPower** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 8:17am

If they allow full nelsons, you have another option right there. Personally I think chokes are the best way to go, but you might be able to slip it in, especially with someone who's just used to the traditional submission holds.

**Fighting Cephalopod** · Posted On: 9/15/2005 11:13am

There are many ways to open the guy up to chokes in no gi.

Place one hand on the top of his head and pull sideways, like you're trying to make his ear touch his shoulder. This creates an opening on the side to slide your hand under his chin.

If you have him face down, cup both hands under his chin and arch your back. Doing this with just your arms is a brute strength move, but with your back his neck can't possibly resist. This gives an opening to slap on the choke. This is difficult when your back is to the mat, though, since you'll have trouble arching enough.

Put your arm across his chin as if you're attempting to RNC his chin. You can just lock like this and turn it into a jawlock, but some people are gigantic pussies about doing this in training, so clear it with your instructer/training partners first.

Put your arm across his chin like before, but don't lock up the RNC. Instead grab his shoulder firmly with your hand, using it as a 'handle'. This keeps your arm in position for the RNC and it is difficult for him to peel your hand off. While maintaining backward pressure with that arm, use your free hand on the top of his head to move his head back and forth, up and down. Eventually space will be created under his chin; since you are maintaining backwards pressure with your arm, as soon as space is created it will slip into place for the choke.

There are lots of other ways, but these are high percentage for me. Play around with them and see what works for you.