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  1. Chameleon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2007 10:25pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenz
    I was just specualting/philosophizing, based on a book called the "Tao of Physics".
    I read it back in the '80s when I was just discovering Taoism and quantum physics.

    Pehaps the best way to describe chi is to call it bullshit.
    I disagree. IMO, a lot of Westerners labor under a materialistic view of the universe that is philosophically bankrupt. They arbitrarily dismiss things that lack materialistc proof. But this is nosensical because the most basic human experience - our consciosness - defies cogent physical description.

    How much does your consciousness weigh?

    The most fundamental part of our experience and self identity - that through which all our experiences and observations manifest - cannot even be proven to exist. It can only be experienced.

    Nobody can prove chi exists. But nobody can prove love exists either. I can't prove that I love my kids, but I sure as hell can feel it and experience it. When trustworthy people with lots of experience and no reason to lie describe feeling chi to me, I tend to believe them. I don't validate or invalidate claims about chi with science any more than I do claims about love.
  2. Chameleon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2007 10:56pm

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    I'd suggest Paul Davies as the best author for explaining quantum physics, and philosphical implications to a layperson. Davies has a lot more up to date stuff also. I liked his stuff better than Gribbin's back in the '80s, but haven't read much of his new stuff.

    But back to Shaolin-Do...My experience was that they worked out pretty hard, sparred early and often, and were pretty much what I'd expect from a decent standup-only martial arts school. For people who like learning lots of forms, it is probably a good curriculum. And unlike other mega-Grandmasters I've seen, Sin The actually looked like a really in-shape, healthy guy for his age the one time I saw him. He was probably in his 50s, but could have passed for 30s.

    IMO, there tends to be lots of bullshido in the lineage and "greatest martial artist on the planet" marketing of a lot of Asian grandmasters here in the US.

    People who want the traditional experience, complete with a Mr. Miyagi are going to have to sort all those desires out for themselves through their own direct experiences. The Internet probably isn't the best place to look for truth in those kinds of thing.,
  3. goldenz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 12:59am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    My recommendation is that you find a better book for layman's understanding of quantum phenomena.

    Now, back to Shaolin-Do ...
    Sorry to color outside the lines.....

    Obviously no point in speculating about the existance of chi. The Tao of physics is more about similarities of conclusions arrived at by both scientists and Taoist. Do not need a layman's understanding of quantum, pehaps a refresher course. I will give your book a read too.


    I brought this up because chi is supposedly a form of energy, we can rule out mechanical work, what are we left with but internal energy (roational, tranlational, and vibrational energy) of the molecules and heat. I am not making that part up (thermodynamics), nor was it something I learned in martial arts.

    Could this energy called chi exist at the molecular/atomic level? That is all I am after I lay no claims to being a death touch master, levitator, water walker, or even a good fighter. I think these are questions worth asking, I suppose columbus had plenty of folks telling him the world was flat. Not that I am columbus.

    So does chi exist? and if so what is it? These are questions I want answers to. Could it be a result of a chemical reaction that takes place at the celular level? Could it form in the mitochondria? Can it be directed and used to heal the body or to destroy an opponent? I have heared it described as the life force, is it the sum of energies present in the human body at any given moment? Perhaps the answers are in the Kreb's cycle? Most info about chi says it comes from breath. Breath results in increasing the O2 levels in the body. Increased O2 results in increased metabolic function, which causes increased energy, which leaves the body as , mechanical work (breakin the foot off in the ass), waste, C02, and heat, maybe even chi?. (Very simplified explanation I know). Most martial arts teach breathing techiques as a part of the training. Some go so far as to talk about chi and it uses in combat. I am trying to answer this question, maybe it is bullshit to some of you, but it means something to me. I believe most of the Chi philosophies have Taoist roots, I may be wrong, the could be hindu roots. Either way, is it possible modern physics can explain chi? Could the taoist stumbled upon a phenomena that has a benifit for humanity? Science is about finding a hypothesis and proving it wrong/right, maybe I am insane to ask questions, because one should never question anything, especially if it is on the internet.
    Last edited by goldenz; 6/27/2007 1:06am at .
  4. goldenz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 1:12am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chameleon
    I'd suggest Paul Davies as the best author for explaining quantum physics, and philosphical implications to a layperson. Davies has a lot more up to date stuff also. I liked his stuff better than Gribbin's back in the '80s, but haven't read much of his new stuff.

    But back to Shaolin-Do...My experience was that they worked out pretty hard, sparred early and often, and were pretty much what I'd expect from a decent standup-only martial arts school. For people who like learning lots of forms, it is probably a good curriculum. And unlike other mega-Grandmasters I've seen, Sin The actually looked like a really in-shape, healthy guy for his age the one time I saw him. He was probably in his 50s, but could have passed for 30s.

    IMO, there tends to be lots of bullshido in the lineage and "greatest martial artist on the planet" marketing of a lot of Asian grandmasters here in the US.

    People who want the traditional experience, complete with a Mr. Miyagi are going to have to sort all those desires out for themselves through their own direct experiences. The Internet probably isn't the best place to look for truth in those kinds of thing.,
    Cool I will read it.
  5. Chameleon is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 11:46am

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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenz
    chi is supposedly a form of energy, we can rule out mechanical work...
    Chi is supposedly lots of different things. I've read about early theories that describe it in an effort to explain the stench of corpses - i.e. chi is the "life force" that you smell leaving a dead body.

    It is hard to know exactly how a particular group of Taoists might have understood chi, but it is certain that they did not have the same definition of energy as modern science. So I wouldn't assume it is energy as we understand it.

    I suppose columbus had plenty of folks telling him the world was flat.
    Actually this is a myth that started in the 19th century. The spherical earth was well known in the middle ages. A spherical earth was the standard in middle age textbooks and teachings going back to the 8th century. Nobody was telling Columbus he would fall off the earth. They were arguing about the size of the earth, and concluding that he would never make it all the way around to the Orient. Were it not for the Americas, they would have been correct - he never would have made it all the way around to the other end of the known world. Continued belief in this debunked myth goes to show how easy it is for modern man to convince himself of preposterous, unsupportable ideas so long as they conform to his prejudices.

    So does chi exist? and if so what is it?
    Again, ask yourself the same question about consciousness. It can only be answered with a metaphysical answer. Science cannot answer the most basic metaphysical quetsions, so why is finding a materialistic answer to this one so unique or important?

    is it possible modern physics can explain chi?
    It is not currently possible, and probably won't be in our lifetimes. They are just starting to confirm some premises of TCM.

    Could the taoist stumbled upon a phenomena that has a benifit for humanity?
    Health benefits of practices such as chi kung, tai chi, accupuncture, etc., have been empirically verified.
  6. The_Tao is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 1:43pm


     Style: Proudly Shaolin Do.

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    Why do people care that much about verification for what they believe in? Is it really THAT important to have scientific proof for what you believe or don't believe in? Do people no longer take time to think about things and look to themselves for answers instead of quantum physics professor for answers?
  7. artard is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 2:45pm


     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Tao
    Why do people care that much about verification for what they believe in? Is it really THAT important to have scientific proof for what you believe or don't believe in?
    yes, it is, and is the reason so many people on this site no longer practice various martial arts and started doing new ones. how can you even ask a question like "why is it important for things to be proven" with a straight face, but then again you are the one defending shaolin do.
  8. The_Tao is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 2:55pm


     Style: Proudly Shaolin Do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by artard
    yes, it is, and is the reason so many people on this site no longer practice various martial arts and started doing new ones. how can you even ask a question like "why is it important for things to be proven" with a straight face, but then again you are the one defending shaolin do.



    and there is something wrong with defending what I beleive in? I think not.
  9. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 3:15pm

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    Hi, The Tao. Where do you study SD?
  10. oldmonkey is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 3:27pm

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     Style: kung fu

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    Rules are a good thing

    About those 'techniques too dangerous' to use in matches...
    Why criticize Shaolin Kung fu for this? All martial arts I know, including MMA have similar restrictions to protect the fighter.

    For example, if you were wrestling, and your opponent uses his fingernail to scratch your cornea causing potential permanent eye damage, wouldn't you want there to be a rule against it?

    I don't think it makes you less of a martial artist, just a sensible one.

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