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  1. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 4:43pm

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     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Computer hic-cup just took out my point by point response to your post, Coach. I'll reconstruct it if you like.

    BTW, kind of dishonest of you in your "authoritative" article citation. The advice to suspend all activity came at the very last ... "real" credible source also ... 1999 and by an AF CPT who listed all of -0- supporting evidence for his stated positions ... not a single footnote.
    Oh yeah, the disclaimer at the end attributed everything to CPT Ross ... he's a real "heavy hitter" ... just all kinds of NIH research money being thrown his way.

    As for my "experience" ... did the Chiropratic curriculum at a small Southern College, couple semesters of Organic Chemisty as well ... sat in on several autopsies (violent murder victims) in addition to "formal" in the class time.

    I research and read a fair amount of CURRENT medical literature regarding pain and injury as part of my profession.

    As for your tale regarding acclimatization & the track event ... had 5 guys die in my SFAS Course ... we were all pre-tested & pre-screened prior to being admitted to the Course. 458 started and at the end of day 21 ... 171 of us were still standing. I think I might know a little bit about pain and injury .... your mileage may vary.

    Your choice, Coach. I think this thread has excellent potential for presenting some guidelines of real value if you stay in it. Keep distorting my positions by ignoring context and I'll dance circles around you all day long.

    I suggest we move forward in a more civil and overall helpful fashion. It's up to you as to which way this thing goes. John
  2. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 8:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    BTW, kind of dishonest of you in your "authoritative" article citation. The advice to suspend all activity came at the very last ... "real" credible source also ... 1999 and by an AF CPT who listed all of -0- supporting evidence for his stated positions ... not a single footnote.
    Oh yeah, the disclaimer at the end attributed everything to CPT Ross ... he's a real "heavy hitter" ... just all kinds of NIH research money being thrown his way.
    Didn't cite it as authoritative - just as an example. I have a habit, I fear, of burying people here with PubMed citations; so I thought I'd stay simple. You want more, I can provide more - it's mostly a matter of on-line accessability.

    His advice is consistent with others, though.

    Perhaps, instead of just poking at the author's credentials, you could provide some contradictory citations.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    As for my "experience" ... did the Chiropratic curriculum at a small Southern College, couple semesters of Organic Chemisty as well ... sat in on several autopsies (violent murder victims) in addition to "formal" in the class time.

    I research and read a fair amount of CURRENT medical literature regarding pain and injury as part of my profession.
    B.S. Drake University, Biology and Computer Science. M.A. Drake University, Biology.

    Graduate course work at U.C.L.A. biochemistry and organic chem. Graduate course work at South Dakota State University (transfer is long story, partly due to the fact that I'm a hick, don't like living in cities.) - mostly molecular biology, some biochem, cell biology, physiology, computer science, crop science. Was graduate teaching assistant for the physiology course, full-time instructor for a couple courses.

    Current status is a Ph.D. candidate, but that's where it gets difficult - and I've posted the details elsewhere. At this point, I'm considering finishing my degree in exercise physiology, and, given that I've gotten into a few on-line debates similar to this one, I'd like to research an area related to martial arts training. DOMS is a possibility.

    So I read a fair amount of current literature myself - but I hesitate to use the term research unless I'm doing the labwork.

    Now that we got that out of the way, how about focusing on the topic at hand?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    As for your tale regarding acclimatization & the track event ... had 5 guys die in my SFAS Course ... we were all pre-tested & pre-screened prior to being admitted to the Course. 458 started and at the end of day 21 ... 171 of us were still standing. I think I might know a little bit about pain and injury .... your mileage may vary.
    Well, that you start your paragraph with "acclimatization" and end with "pain and injury" suggests that you didn't get my point about the difference between acclimatization and conditioning (which means you might not understand why I think heat illness is not pertinent to the topic at hand).

    But what strikes me is that you've cited an astonishing number - 5 fatalities out of 458. Is this typical?

    According to published sources (Ann Intern Med 2004;141:829-834), fatalities rates in basic training is roughly 13/100,000. You cite a rate 8300% higher. What were the causes? In the cited report, the majority were caused by underlying cardiac abnormalities.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Your choice, Coach.
    Actually, it's your choice. Athletes, who I train, call me coach. Strangers don't. Your use of the word sounds sarcastic.

    People who I discuss physiology with, students and faculty, call me by my given name - Peter.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Keep distorting my positions by ignoring context and I'll dance circles around you all day long.
    If you can be clear on your position; you have left context pretty vague. Go back and look - I've asked specific questions to clarify your position. As for distoring positions - well, I don't think I presented Ross as "authoritative" , though i will admit I mistakenly used i.e. instead of e.g.; but I don't deserve the dishonest label. You play nice, I'll play nice too.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    I suggest we move forward in a more civil and overall helpful fashion. It's up to you as to which way this thing goes. John
    Go back to the opening paragraph I've quoted and decide if that's the tone you want to maintain.
  3. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 8:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IPPON!
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  4. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 8:37pm

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Didn't cite it as authoritative - just as an example. I have a habit, I fear, of burying people here with PubMed citations; so I thought I'd stay simple. You want more, I can provide more - it's mostly a matter of on-line accessability.
    Understood.

    Perhaps, instead of just poking at the author's credentials, you could provide some contradictory citations.
    Reasonable and I will do so.


    B.S. Drake University, Biology and Computer Science. M.A. Drake University, Biology.

    Graduate course work at U.C.L.A. biochemistry and organic chem. Graduate course work at South Dakota State University (transfer is long story, partly due to the fact that I'm a hick, don't like living in cities.) - mostly molecular biology, some biochem, cell biology, physiology, computer science, crop science. Was graduate teaching assistant for the physiology course, full-time instructor for a couple courses.

    Current status is a Ph.D. candidate, but that's where it gets difficult - and I've posted the details elsewhere. At this point, I'm considering finishing my degree in exercise physiology, and, given that I've gotten into a few on-line debates similar to this one, I'd like to research an area related to martial arts training. DOMS is a possibility.
    You didn't post up anything like the above in your opeing salvo. I stand corrected and readily concede that your formal education & professional experience is echelons above mine in this area and the topic at hand.

    So I read a fair amount of current literature myself - but I hesitate to use the term research unless I'm doing the labwork.
    Understood ... "term of art" limited to a specific discipline. Most of my stuff comes from Johns-Hopkins, and Kernan Hospital (primarly related to traumatic brain injury).

    Now that we got that out of the way, how about focusing on the topic at hand?
    Agreed.

    Well, that you start your paragraph with "acclimatization" and end with "pain and injury" suggests that you didn't get my point about the difference between acclimatization and conditioning (which means you might not understand why I think heat illness is not pertinent to the topic at hand).
    I "got" the distinction quite clearly. I spent 6 1/2 months wandering about the sandbox in Desert Storm ... I've spent months sloshing around in the swamps of the Amazon ... I think I might know, not from reading but from living, what constitutes becoming acclimatized.

    But what strikes me is that you've cited an astonishing number - 5 fatalities out of 458. Is this typical?

    According to published sources (Ann Intern Med 2004;141:829-834), fatalities rates in basic training is roughly 13/100,000. You cite a rate 8300% higher. What were the causes? In the cited report, the majority were caused by underlying cardiac abnormalities.
    Back to being that way I see ... and for someone that has a large amount of literature research under your belt ...

    SFAS = The US Army Special Forces Assessment & Selection Course ... NOT Basic Training (that was fun). Formally it presents like this: SFAS-C The "C" does not stand for "Course" it is a "danger" indicator. "C" Courses have "A high probability of physical and/or psychological injury."

    The escape & evasion course developed by the late Nick Rowe is another such course ... SERE-C. Are we squared away on that or do you want to continue to attempt to pick away at me? What you know by way of formal education I might know a little bit about by way of LIVING it.

    Actually, it's your choice. Athletes, who I train, call me coach. Strangers don't. Your use of the word sounds sarcastic.
    My Father retired a couple of years back as "The Dean of High School Football Coaches" in Florida ... 43 years. I have the highest regard and respect for the profession. I wish more people who gravitated towards that profession had your level of keen insight into how & why the Human Condition functions or doesn't function under sports conditions. I still see young Children enduring football practice in full pads when there is a State wide "heat advisory" in place. Idiots and that includes the Parents for allowing it.

    People who I discuss physiology with, students and faculty, call me by my given name - Peter.
    Cool ... John works for me.

    If you can be clear on your position; you have left context pretty vague. Go back and look - I've asked specific questions to clarify your position. As for distoring positions - well, I don't think I presented Ross as "authoritative" , though i will admit I mistakenly used i.e. instead of e.g.; but I don't deserve the dishonest label. You play nice, I'll play nice too.
    Understood and agreed. I'll post up on the "context" issue tomorrow. Time to put my Son to bed for the evening ... first day back at school tomorrow and he's hating life.

    Go back to the opening paragraph I've quoted and decide if that's the tone you want to maintain.
    No need. You are a highly educated professional and don't require my leading you to the proper conclusion in this matter. John
    Last edited by JFS USA; 8/29/2005 8:41pm at .
  5. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 8:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    match goes to DAKOTAJUDO!!!

    Hey John, I think you're funny and cool (for a grouchy old bastard of near-fifty), despite every thread you touch turning into a scorched-earth flamewar. Taking your bio at face value, and assuming you have skill at expressing traditional chinese arts, you could be great for the community here.

    Psst! (((It would also be cool if you were a little less antagofuckingnistic. You took umbrage at 'asshole', so lets just agree that you are a *dick* ala Team America. Thats cool, the world needs them, but... )))
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  6. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 10:00pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    You didn't post up anything like the above in your opeing salvo.
    Sometimes, I try to be humble. Sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    I stand corrected and readily concede that your formal education & professional experience is echelons above mine in this area and the topic at hand.
    And manfully conceded, I'll give you credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Most of my stuff comes from Johns-Hopkins, and Kernan Hospital (primarly related to traumatic brain injury).
    I interviewed at the Johns-Hopkins for grad school. Wouldn't have worked; I'm too much a hick to last long there. I can see how the place might make a person a little argumentative.

    As for brain injury - there's another possible area of research related to martial arts - specifically, what are the long term effects of cumulative concussion in MMA as compared to boxing, or the rates of injury of MMA as compared to similar but more widely accepted combative sports, such as boxing or wrestling. There's a bid to-do over the local MMA scene.


    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    I "got" the distinction quite clearly. I spent 6 1/2 months wandering about the sandbox in Desert Storm ... I've spent months sloshing around in the swamps of the Amazon ... I think I might know, not from reading but from living, what constitutes becoming acclimatized.
    Well, I just wanted to stick to the O.P.'s complaint, and I don't see that acclimatization is related. So when you brought up heat injury, I didn't want to just ignore it, but I also wanted you to understand why I didn't want to continue with that, either. I don't want to ignore your experience, either. But I'd like to come to an understanding about the issue of conditioning before we add the complication of acclimatization.

    That's the point of my example - perhaps I should have been more clear. The first meet of our cross-country season was typically about 2 weeks after the start of practice, 90 degree, windy August afternoon. Yet we had relatively few problems with heat exhaustion, even with less than conditioned runners (trust me, the kids I coached came intor the season not having done much over the summer; they were rarely ready to race in the first meet).

    In contrast, a 70 degree afternoon in late October was problem for quite a few well conditioned runners - largely because the prior week or two averaged around 50-60 degrees.

    I just wanted to be clear on what I see as the difference between conditioning and acclimatization, I and why I'd just as soon not include it in the debate at hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    The escape & evasion course developed by the late Nick Rowe is another such course ... SERE-C. Are we squared away on that or do you want to continue to attempt to pick away at me? What you know by way of formal education I might know a little bit about by way of LIVING it.
    I am honestly curious as to why the death rate would be so much higher. The study i cited suggests that suddden death in basic training is largely due to undetected cardiac conditions. I'm assuming the course you describe follows a course of basic training - which should weed out those with these undetected conditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    My Father retired a couple of years back as "The Dean of High School Football Coaches" in Florida ... 43 years. I have the highest regard and respect for the profession. I wish more people who gravitated towards that profession had your level of keen insight into how & why the Human Condition functions or doesn't function under sports conditions. I still see young Children enduring football practice in full pads when there is a State wide "heat advisory" in place. Idiots and that includes the Parents for allowing it.
    Unfortunately, that's true for anybody who goes into any kind of high school profession. The pay's just not there.

    Another part of the problem, that relates to why I've disagreed with you on the point of "push through the pain", is that, in many schools, there are sufficient numbers that coaches don't need to worry about individuals.

    Again, let me use cross-country as an example.

    I read a book about the CC program at the U of Colorado. The author described typical training on the order of 100+ miles per week - 20 mile runs in 2 hours were common. Contrast this with my college CC training of about 60 miles per week - some guys maybe got up to 80.

    But - the U of C program typically had 25-30 runners, our team had about 10-12.

    If you take 25-30 runners and throw 100 mile weeks at them, you'll lose a lot. But you only need 7 to make up a team; you can lose a helluva lot of runners before you need to worry about attrition. And about who can survive training at 100+ is going to be a damn good runner.

    But are they good because they've trained 100+ mile weeks. or can only the good runners survive 100+ miles weeks? Is it an improvement or a selection process.

    On the other hand, with a smaller number of runners (and this is what I was faced with as a coach), you've got to keep everybody healthy. That means laying off, sometimes.

    At the high school level, only four runners score per meet. One season, I had to nurse our fourth runner through back spasms - we couldn't tell her to try to run through the pain, because if we lost her we wouldn't have anybody in our fourth spot who could've given a score that would matter. Just not worth the risk of injury.

    If I had more people to work with, I might've run the crap outta'em, and if it meant running though pain, so be it - if you lay off, there's always else gunning for your spot, so you may well try.

    I see the O.P. complaint, though, as needing to maintain. I'm assuming he's just some guy, looking to get some mat time in, still needs to get up and work the next morning. Someone else, different situation, I might not argue.

    To be clear, I didn't want to simply dismiss your training experience; I'm just assuming it's more a case of selection and not improvement - so not directly applicable to the topic at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Cool ... John works for me.
    Hi John, nicetameetcha.
  7. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 10:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    match goes to DAKOTAJUDO!!!
    Well, not so much a match, really; even though I do sometimes come off confrontational.

    I see as it a hard randori session - it doesn't matter that much who wins or loses, but if you're not trying to kick your partner's ass, you're not helping him train all that much, either.

    Done right, you both end up better off. I can't say I spent all that much time considering the difference between acclimization and conditioning, for example, but having tried to debate the distinction may help me coaching some time down the road; even if I think John's wrong on this topic, he's forced me to work hard to be right.
  8. Zendetta is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 11:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MMA, functional JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its beautiful how competition spurs upwards evolution.

    THe Hippies out here don't seem to see that.

    Damn Hippies!
    "You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
  9. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 7:13am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTEI interviewed at the Johns-Hopkins for grad school. Wouldn't have worked; I'm too much a hick to last long there. I can see how the place might make a person a little argumentative.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't mean to imply it was easy dealing with JH ... "all" Johns-Hopkins Physicians are gods ... don't believe me ... just ask one of them. I have an in through a Case Manager who works there.

    As for brain injury - there's another possible area of research related to martial arts - specifically, what are the long term effects of cumulative concussion in MMA as compared to boxing, or the rates of injury of MMA as compared to similar but more widely accepted combative sports, such as boxing or wrestling. There's a bid to-do over the local MMA scene.
    I've been working with the Maryland Brain Injury Association for a couple of years now. Loss of Executive Functioning is something that escapes a lot of people.

    I'm meeting with their Executive Director on the 31st to set up the dates - times I'll be staffing there.

    Here's an interesting thing that Diane Triplett (Exec Dir) has been pushing for and finally made some in-roads. Children engaging in school sponsored sports are having brain tracings done and the information stored in a centralized data base.

    In the event a Child suffers a head injury the treating Physician will be given the pre-morbid study and be able to "compare - contrast" this with the post injury study. The NIH is actually kicking in some money to fund the project. I'll be floating the idea to our County Commissioners in the near future.


    But I'd like to come to an understanding about the issue of conditioning before we add the complication of acclimatization
    Understood. I would like to point out that the distinction is really not all that clean. From a holistic perspective, the "environment" is very much the training setting.

    I jettisioned the Newtonian Mechanical World View a few years back ... cause & effect. In reality, that model was destroyed in 1922. It certainly served its purpose and launched us as a creature further foward & faster than anything in recorded history. However, it is played out ... modern medicine is one of the last strongholds of the old paradigm ... I wonder why ... hmmm ... $$$$

    I am honestly curious as to why the death rate would be so much higher.
    Have you ever served in the US Army? Basic Training is a lark ... a stroll in the park. The Marines do it much better.

    As to the "why" part of it ... "Black Flag" days (Heat Advisory - Cat 5) mostly (even Ft. Bragg slows down when this is the case) ... task - condition - standards. Ruck had to weigh a minimum of 55 pounds at all times. Spot weigh in checks were common ... 1 pound under and you were terminated from the Course. Add in the mock M16-A1, a few gallons of water, Web Gear and we were humping near 24/7 with about 83 extra pounds. Average sleep in any 24 hour period was 2 1/2 hours. Repeated Long Range Land Nav (Morn. - Afternoon - Night, about 12 - 15 miles per session X 3) with bouts of high intensity physical activities tossed in the mix ... seeminly at random ... as for food, sometimes we were given something to eat and sometimes we weren't. I went into the Course totally buff ... lost about 27 pounds just in this phase of the Course. There were some other "things" in there as well but this gives you an idea.

    Try the above for 21 straight days and let me know how you feel.

    The study i cited suggests that suddden death in basic training is largely due to undetected cardiac conditions. I'm assuming the course you describe follows a course of basic training - which should weed out those with these undetected conditions.
    See above and drop the "Basic Training" references as BT is totally N/A.

    Unfortunately, that's true for anybody who goes into any kind of high school profession. The pay's just not there.
    I don't accept that. I could whore myself out and make a damned fortune. The "It's all about me" generation has discovered a simple fact of life ... "things" ... including 2 BMWs in the drive way ... do not result in lasting satisfaction.

    I read a book about the CC program at the U of Colorado.
    I lived in that area for years ... seems to have always been as you describe, even on a High School level ... we called CC peeps the "walking dead" ...

    Is it an improvement or a selection process.
    Selection. Some peeps become good at what they do "despite" the coaching they receive.

    To be clear, I didn't want to simply dismiss your training experience; I'm just assuming it's more a case of selection and not improvement - so not directly applicable to the topic at hand.
    Do as you will. I'm not setting aside what I know by way of direct, personal experience in favor of a "study" conducted by someone who has never stepped foot from the Ivory Tower.

    I've encountered instances where a well constructed study did not jibe with the reality of the matter. Studies can, and some times are, manipulated in order to meet the goals of the designer. Reality is just that ... REAL. John
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 7:19am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zendetta
    Psst! (((It would also be cool if you were a little less antagofuckingnistic. You took umbrage at 'asshole', so lets just agree that you are a *dick* ala Team America. Thats cool, the world needs them, but... )))
    Damn Dude, don't you think you could come up with something a bit more ... oh, how shall I say it ... NOBLE sounding?

    "Sir Richard Cranium of Team America" has a certain ring to it :new_multi John
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