222344 Bullies, 4400 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 41 to 50 of 177
Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst 12345 678915 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Bard of DorAr is offline

    Fencing Instructor

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    650

    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 10:26pm


     Style: Sabre/Rapier/Katana

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Darkside thing was a joke. A lot of McDojos, Bullshido artists, etc, refer to BJJ as a bunch of idiot jocks bashing the "Real martial arts" such as they are seen. It's not a literal comment and not really meant to imply BJJ as some uber unbeatable unapproachable art.

    And Eternal, This isn't JFS flaming. Flaming was the over the top garbage towards Asia over god knows what. This is blunt with a touch of rudeness, which he explained his reasoning for.

    On the other hand, that makes JKDChick right, he's an asshole. An asshole with a purpose is still an asshole.
  2. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 10:41am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    BTW, the "advice" being given to the noob about laying out of class until he isn't
    "sore" is completely ... WRONG.

    If he's experiencing pain not indicative of serious injury then he's in the body hardening phase and needs to push through the pain.

    If he's in heavy pain then the only peeps qualified to determine whether it's pain from serious injury or merely pain from exertional activity outside his "normal" range of activity are Physicians and those in Sports Medicine. John
    So which one are you?

    If you're neither a physician nor in sports medicine, then you've disqualified your own advice - are you qualified to determine if the pain is from injury or over-exertion? If not, why are you giving advice on how to treat it?

    For myself, based on years coaching and some training in physiology, my advice to "the noob" would be to listen to your own body, not some random nut on the internet.

    And, physiologically, WTF is the "body hardening phase"?
  3. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland Area
    Posts
    3,837

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 11:33am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    If you're neither a physician nor in sports medicine, then you've disqualified your own advice - are you qualified to determine if the pain is from injury or over-exertion? If not, why are you giving advice on how to treat it?
    Nice try ... and nothing more. You need to read my post again and see where your "slant" on it is incorrect and purely argumentative.

    Judging from your "resume" as listed below ... I'm much more qualified by way of formal education and training than you.

    For myself, based on years coaching and some training in physiology, my advice to "the noob" would be to listen to your own body, not some random nut on the internet.
    Agreed with the caveat that the noob checks with an informed source (M.D. or Sports Medicine ... even a Physical Therapist would be a good way to go.) until such time as he/she develops some reasonable level of understanding with regard to what constitutes "pain" that is a natural by product of rigorous training and pain that might be indicative of serious injury.

    If you just make the blanket assertion that "listening to your body" is the whole of the criteria you are in error on several accounts. An individual's pain threshold is pre-set ... nerve endings do not down regulate over time. A person can develop a degree of "mental toughness" and push through the perceived pain but the pain will remain a constant.

    The other thing is that some serious injuries do not present as being all that serious ... at the time. I had the cruciate ligament and some other connective tissues destroyed and quite frankly ... it just wasn't all that painful.

    Heat injuries are another source of "masked" injury. By the time a person realizeds they are injured it's way too late. This type of injury need not take place in the blinding Sun of the desert. Given a hot, humid day, the confines of a Gym could easily provide the right environment.

    Growth as a MA or athlete is something that should occur across many parameters. To simply "listen to your body" is a good way to go ... perhaps the best way to go ... for the seasoned & informed individual. For a noob, it's most likely worthless and might lead him/her into serious danger.

    And, physiologically, WTF is the "body hardening phase"?
    Old school phrase. It refers to the initial adaptive changes the body experiences in response to new - novel physical/exertional stimulus. In football (American) and boxing it was generally referred to as "contact" shape.

    Depending upon a person's age (chronological & biological), pre-existing physical condition (wide range of concerns) there is a window that roughly translates to 30 - 45 days wherein a person tends to experience near constant pain (of some magnitude in various body parts) that is directly related to the new - novel physical activity. Part of the game if you will and not reflective of "real" or "serious" injury.

    Outside of new ROM requirements, new muscle recruitment pattern demands, there is also the matter of lactic acid clearance rate, primary metabolic energy pathway(s) being accessed, intensity - frequency - duration of the new activity have a significant impact, the nervous system is required to adjust as well ... Lumped all together this adjustment period use to be called the "body hardening phase."

    Today, we tend to be a bit more refined in our approach and address the whole of the matter in a step wise fashion by way of each discrete element. Seemed outside the scope of this thread to me. So I gave it the "generic" designator.

    Okay, Coach, satisified with my answer? John
  4. JKDChick is offline
    JKDChick's Avatar

    Senior Administrator

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,131

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 1:20pm

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OKay, I split off the flane war. Go to Trolldshido with it.
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  5. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland Area
    Posts
    3,837

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 2:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDChick
    OKay, I split off the flane war.
    Well damn, Girl, sorry to read you split off the "flane" war ... whatever the Hell that might be.

    Actually, I think if Coach will get into this thing there is a possible good thread here.

    Serious Note: It is important to recognize pain from serious or potentially serious injury ... from a prophylatic perspective if nothing else. Lloyd Irvin has kicked, and continues to kick much ass ... and has repeatedly undergone surgery to repair the damage done from his unwillingness to tap.

    There is a fine line between being harder than woodpecker lips and stupid. Peeps are free to decide ... but I'm not all that keen on getting cut on ... been, done that a few times ... it sucks.

    The concerns regarding pain as injury signal and pain as sign of heavy physical exertion should stay with us as long as we continue to do this MA thing. I've seen peeps who must have known better push through it when they should have just called it a day.

    This isn't restricted to males by any stretch of the imagination. Saw a female get rammed face first into a hardwood floor while sparring ... that's all it was ... sparring ... not a life or death situation. On impact two of her teeth were broken off just above the gum line. She spit out the pieces along with some blood and insisted on continuing. The "smart" thing would have been to pick up the teeth fragments and immediately called her Dentist.

    I've seen guys take wicked body shots that most likely broke some ribs ... in sparring ... just sparring. A couple of them were highly seasoned and should have known better than to continue. Getting a broken rib shoved through a lung isn't a valid way to promote good health. Instead of calling it a day and then calling their Doctor they insisted on continuing. Bunch of noobs "oohing & ahhing" over how tough those guys were. To me, they were idiots and set a piss poor example for the noobs.

    If we want to continue to enjoy this thing we do for the majority of our lives, and many of want just that, then correctly reading pain is of paramount importance. Pain is now and will always be part of the game. John
  6. RoninPimp is offline
    RoninPimp's Avatar

    BJJ Black Belt

    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Baltimore, MD
    Posts
    1,141

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 2:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lloyd Irvin has kicked, and continues to kick much ass ... and has repeatedly undergone surgery to repair the damage done from his unwillingness to tap.
    -Lloyd told you this?
  7. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Baltimore, Maryland Area
    Posts
    3,837

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 3:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RoninPimp
    -Lloyd told you this?
    I'm on Lloyd's Email list and he stated that he has had several corrective operations to repair damage done from his being unwilling to tap.

    He also stated that if he had it to all over again he would have just tapped and learned from the experience.

    If I remember correctly he was of the mindset that the pain didn't matter ... the guy would eventually tire of the hold and switch to something else ... John
  8. dakotajudo is offline
    dakotajudo's Avatar

    Judo Instructor

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    South Dakota
    Posts
    633

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Nice try ... and nothing more. You need to read my post again and see where your "slant" on it is incorrect and purely argumentative.
    Read it again yourself - you say don't take advice from people who are not qualified to give it; as far as I can tell, that would inclue you. If you are one of the exceptions you listed, I'll retract my statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    I'm much more qualified by way of formal education and training than you.
    And that would be ...?


    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Agreed with the caveat that the noob checks with an informed source (M.D. or Sports Medicine ... even a Physical Therapist would be a good way to go.) until such time as he/she develops some reasonable level of understanding with regard to what constitutes "pain" that is a natural by product of rigorous training and pain that might be indicative of serious injury.
    Won't argue with that, just that, in that absence of such understanding, "listen to your body" is less reckless advice to give than "push through the pain".

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    If you just make the blanket assertion that "listening to your body" is the whole of the criteria you are in error on several accounts.
    As opposed to the blanket assertion of "push through the pain"? Don't read too much into "listen to your body" - I was playing the phrase off of "listen to some random nut", although, in the specific case of continuing a physical activity in spite of pain, "listen to your body" is more responsible than "push through the pain".

    Your advice may work if given to team of collegiate athletes with a short preseason, but for an individual recreational athlete, not so good.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    An individual's pain threshold is pre-set ... nerve endings do not down regulate over time. A person can develop a degree of "mental toughness" and push through the perceived pain but the pain will remain a constant.
    You can be more specific - are you talking about short term regulation of receptor activity, or long term down regulation of receptor production? Are you talking about peripheral receptors or post-synaptic neurons? By using the phrase "nerve endings" I assume you're talking about the peripheral receptors, but the phrase "perceived pain" suggests you mean CNS receptors.

    In either case, I don't think you can say that nerve endings do not down regulate; at least, that's not my reading of the literature, and the common usage of the term "down regulate". Do you have sources?

    I would agree if you were talking about adaption to pain - the firing rate of peripheral neurons doesn't change so much as CNS processing of the signals. But I don't think the useage of "down regulation" is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    The other thing is that some serious injuries do not present as being all that serious ... at the time. I had the cruciate ligament and some other connective tissues destroyed and quite frankly ... it just wasn't all that painful.
    I guess I don't see what this has to do with your advice to "push through the pain". I thought you were tgiving advice with respect to chronic pain caused by exercise (i.e. delayed-onset muscle soreness), not acute injury pain. You do talk about the "body hardening phase".

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Heat injuries are another source of "masked" injury. By the time a person realizeds they are injured it's way too late. This type of injury need not take place in the blinding Sun of the desert. Given a hot, humid day, the confines of a Gym could easily provide the right environment.
    Heat injury - I don't care for that phrase; heat illness is more descriptive. I would assume you mean heat stroke and heat exhaustion, but are attempting to stretch the term "injury" to fit into your argument. But then you jump to include the blinding sun - as if you were talking about sunburn - a related but different kind of injury. Taken to an extreme, hyperthermia may lead to some form of injury, but this kind of thing usually occurs when people ignore the symptoms.

    You might be confusing heat illness with dehyration, which can certainly occur without with relatively little symptom, especially on a humid day.

    In any case, heat illness doesn't have much to do with the difference between pain caused by injury or over-exertion. Try to stay focused - we're not talking about acclimatization.

    FWIW, I spent a few years as moderately serious runner (including enough college to realize I was out of my league) and cross-country coach. I've had to deal with heat exhaustion in both cases, and as a separate issue from training. We had a regional meet hit 70 degrees, one that occurred after a couple weeks of typical fall 50 degree days - had a lot of conditioned runners go down due to lack of acclimization.

    But that does not contradict my "listen to your body advice". That advice applies to training - but in competition you frequently need to ignore most of what your body tells you (in this case, it was a qualifier for the state meet, and laying off means ending the season).

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Growth as a MA or athlete is something that should occur across many parameters. To simply "listen to your body" is a good way to go ... perhaps the best way to go ... for the seasoned & informed individual. For a noob, it's most likely worthless and might lead him/her into serious danger.
    As opposed to "push through the pain"? Much more likely to lead to danger. Returning to intense training too soon is more likely to cause re-injury, or a compensatory injury.

    If if doesn't feel right to train, you probably shouldn't - how does this lead to serious danger?

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Depending upon a person's age (chronological & biological), pre-existing physical condition (wide range of concerns) there is a window that roughly translates to 30 - 45 days wherein a person tends to experience near constant pain (of some magnitude in various body parts) that is directly related to the new - novel physical activity. Part of the game if you will and not reflective of "real" or "serious" injury.

    Outside of new ROM requirements, new muscle recruitment pattern demands, there is also the matter of lactic acid clearance rate, primary metabolic energy pathway(s) being accessed, intensity - frequency - duration of the new activity have a significant impact, the nervous system is required to adjust as well ... Lumped all together this adjustment period use to be called the "body hardening phase."
    Sounds like you're talking about DOMS, although I don't now where you get that 30-45 day value. Most sources (i.e. http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/..._99/muscle.htm ) do not advise "push through the pain".

    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Okay, Coach, satisified with my answer? John
    Not really - you are a little too vague, and don't seem to be on point. But we can continue - perhaps the terms of the debate were not well defined at the start.
  9. TacoFu is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    66

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 3:31pm


     Style: Taco Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    arion976:
    At least it's good a shaolin-do guy is doing bjj as opposed to cultivating chi blasts while meditating in the forest. If you stick with it you'll find it becomes addicting.

    jfs_usa:
    Yes, we're aware that the human body acclimatizes to activity-specific training.
    Wow, I can even say that in about 12 words, without needing a 4000 word windbag self-promoting asshole essay.

    Now, STFU and go back to training to carry 1000 pound horses while the rest of us work on how to choke your ugly ass out most effectively.
  10. JKDChick is offline
    JKDChick's Avatar

    Senior Administrator

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    8,131

    Posted On:
    8/29/2005 3:37pm

    staff
     Style: JKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Well damn, Girl, sorry to read you split off the "flane" war ... whatever the Hell that might be.
    Golly gee willikers Mr Wilson, you're so CLEVER. :qcheerlea
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
Page 5 of 18 FirstFirst 12345 678915 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.