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  1. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 5:00pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    I mean no disrespect. But what the **** spurred this rant?
    If you don't put any value in the information then don't read it.

    A "rant"? Not hardly, the guy posted he got gassed first time out in a new activity and one of the forever brain dead BJJ groupies chimed in with "welcome to alive training" or some such bullshit.

    I tire of the BJJ'ers going on and on and on ... like you "discovered" something completely new. It's not. Goes back to Greek Pankration and most likely further as decent documentation is a fairly recent practice.

    BTW, the "advice" being given to the noob about laying out of class until he isn't
    "sore" is completely ... WRONG.

    If he's experiencing pain not indicative of serious injury then he's in the body hardening phase and needs to push through the pain.

    If he's in heavy pain then the only peeps qualified to determine whether it's pain from serious injury or merely pain from exertional activity outside his "normal" range of activity are Physicians and those in Sports Medicine. John
    Last edited by JFS USA; 8/28/2005 1:38pm at .
  2. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by arion
    Finally we do a technical drill where four people get in the gaurd position and the rest of the class mounts someone and tries to get the advantage(like king of the hill game) the person who wins stays down and a new person jumps in(no breaks for the one who keeps winning) I lose the first to or three fairly quickly as I have no idea what I am supposed to be doing
    Sounds exactly like my first Ju-jitsu class.
  3. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:41pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    If you don't any value in the information then don't read it.

    A "rant"? Not hardly, the guy posted he got gassed first time out in a new activity and one of the forever brain dead BJJ groupies chimed in with "welcome to alive training" or some such bullshit.

    I tire of the BJJ'ers going on and on and on ... like you "discovered" something completely new. It's not. Goes back to Greek Pankration and most likely further as decent documentation is a fairly recent practice.

    BTW, the "advice" being given to the noob about laying out of class until he isn't
    "sore" is completely ... WRONG.

    If he's experiencing pain not indicative of serious injury then he's in the body hardening phase and needs to push through the pain.

    If he's in heavy pain then the only peeps qualified to determine whether it's pain from serious injury or merely pain from exertional activity outside his "normal" range of activity are Physicians and those in Sports Medicine. John
    Your specificity stuff was really a no-brainer for anyone involved in fitness cross-training. You want to become a great swimmer: swim. A great runner: run. A great BJJer: roll, and so on and so forth. Good info for a newbie.

    However, I disagree with you on these points

    Firstly, BJJ conditioning is something that takes a little while to obtain, usually a month or two. The first few days after training are generally quite painful until the conditioning is obtained, especially when you end up in some of the more awkward positions, such as knee-on-belly, scarf hold, mount etc. done by an individual knowledgable about the aforementioned positions. This is not to mention the pain caused by submissions, which usually results in some tenderness to the elbows and neck from armbars and chokes.

    Telling a new student to 'push through the pain' is dumb, IMO. I always advise noobs to tap if they feel pain, so as to get them gradually acclimatised at the students own pace to the levels of pain/contact they can expect to experience, and also to ensure that none of them gets hurt from a submission, as the likelihood of a new student knowing every possible permutation of the submission game is kind of low. I would not like to be responsible for snapping a new guy's arm on the first day of training.

    Secondly: As far as your rant about BJJers is concerned, well, I'm honestly sick of:

    - People misunderstanding the personal discovery process that comes with
    experience in BJJ. It may be rediscovery of an old principle, but it's a revelation to the individual that completely changes their own personal game. It may similarly be a revelation to others, i.e. De La Riva Guard, X-guard, Arm drag(yes, I know it's from wrestling. But there are lovely things that can be done in BJJ with it that can't be done in wrestling)

    - TMAers extrapolating: All BJJ guys are arrogant pricks ignorant of history, based upon a few of its highly ranked practitioners, and white belt students with under a year of experience. Come on, do you expect me to judge all TMAers based upon the experiences I've had with a few arrogant examples? For that matter: Would you want to judge Hung gar by a few students in the six-month-student "I am teh deadly" mental phase? I've met a few TMAers that, given the opportunity and time, I would be more than happy to train under.
  4. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you have muscle soreness, go back to class. If you broke or severly sprang a joint, a little rest is in order. If you train hard everytime you go, you'll enjoy it better.

    Remember, its not supposed to feel good, its not a massage. If you train hard at the beginning you will learn to love the pain.
  5. AikidoDeadlines is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 8:18pm


     Style: BJJ blue

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Arion, hey I saw you at the class but I didn't get a chance to say hi. You were doin' good with that turtle. My advice would be to go to the three classes a week. If you start to feel really sore, but not injured (like if any of your joints are messed up), then just go easier in class. The initial warm-ups are not a competition, and you should do as many repititions as you can untill your form starts to suffer. If you find that you can't bring yourself all the way up on the gaurd sit-ups, take a break. If you find yourself cheating, and posting up on your elbow for the static push-ups, take a break...etc. No one should be throwing up during class (unless you are training for a fight). I look forward to seeing you again.
  6. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 9:23pm

    supporting member
     Style: In Transition

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's alright to train if you feel sore, but go light (don't be afraid to take a break during class) If you feel REALLY sore (like, you can't move without a lot of pain), then take a days rest. Or more if you need to. Later, when you get used to it, you can fight through the pain. But when your body is first getting adapted to new activities, it's better to rest.

    PL
  7. arion976 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 12:10pm


     Style: Shaolin-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    aikidodeadlines, yeah I was looking for you but didn't know who you were. Anyway if you get a chance this upcoming thursday point yourself out so I can say hi, unfortunatly i won't be there this weekend or next due to previous engagements so my three day a week thing wont start for about two weeks. What tournaments do you guys participate in? are they strictly grappling/submission or are they MMA style? How long have you been doing BJJ? Aikido? do you know Matt Boone in Aikido? holla back.
  8. arion976 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 12:12pm


     Style: Shaolin-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for all the advice and encourgement from everybody on this forum and I hope to post more about my experiences there, hopefully one day I will get up to tournament condition.
  9. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 12:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    If you don't any value in the information then don't read it.


    If he's experiencing pain not indicative of serious injury then he's in the body hardening phase and needs to push through the pain.

    If he's in heavy pain then the only peeps qualified to determine whether it's pain from serious injury or merely pain from exertional activity outside his "normal" range of activity are Physicians and those in Sports Medicine. John
    I really thought you were a huge cockmaster. But this is true. MA training and indeed any type of training will help people know their body a little better. Among other things what type of pain is serious, and what is just simple muscle pain from unacustomed to the type of training.

    As for the "bandwagon" you should just try to chill a little. If you're gonna jump every person you disagree with, you're in for a hell of a job. And disappointment at that.
    More human than human is our motto.
  10. JFS USA is offline

    Converter of Virgins

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 2:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NSLightsOut
    Your specificity stuff was really a no-brainer for anyone involved in fitness cross-training. You want to become a great swimmer: swim. A great runner: run. A great BJJer: roll, and so on and so forth. Good info for a newbie.
    He is a newbie ... your point?

    However, I disagree with you on these points

    Firstly, BJJ conditioning is something that takes a little while to obtain, usually a month or two.
    And I stated 30 - 45 days ... your point?

    The first few days after training are generally quite painful until the conditioning is obtained, especially when you end up in some of the more awkward positions, ...
    *yawn* talk about preaching to the choir ... I stated activity outside his normal range of acitivity and you just go on and on and on ... about some BJJ bullshit as if it somehow in some fasion sits outsides the confines of Human Movement.

    I played small College Football ... "3 a day" practices were hell. A solid straight on hit by a Middle Linebacker, head high, puts more torque through your neck than anything you can do in BJJ. Gee, I had a sore neck the next morning ... guess what? Practice was still a "go" at 7AM and I was there ... so were the vast majority of guys and I'm sure more than a few were "sore" ...

    This is not to mention the pain caused by submissions, which usually results in some tenderness to the elbows and neck from armbars and chokes.
    What a crock of crap. Every physical activity with a heavily pronounced exertional component will result in "soreness" in certain parts of the body. Platform Divers play hell conditioning their shoulders, neck, & wrist to withstand the impact ... water cannot be compressed as such ... like hitting concrete from the height they burn in at.

    What is your POINT? You post as if the concerns and difficulties you encounter in BJJ are somehow singularly unique in the World. They aren't ... get over yourself and the "BJJ is God" bullshit.

    Telling a new student to 'push through the pain' is dumb, IMO.
    Look, guy, I have no idea if you are being idiotic intentionally in an attempt to goad me or if you are just none too bright.

    I NEVER suggested he push through the pain associated with being trapped in a hold he couldn't escape. I stated he shouldn't lay out of class just because he had a "boo-boo" on his ass or didn't "feel all that great".

    I always advise noobs to tap if they feel pain, so as to get them gradually acclimatised at the students own pace to the levels of pain/contact they can expect to experience, and also to ensure that none of them gets hurt from a submission, as the likelihood of a new student knowing every possible permutation of the submission game is kind of low. I would not like to be responsible for snapping a new guy's arm on the first day of training.
    Understood and agreed. Read my response above this piece ... conditioning ,,, body hardening ... no way around it and Motrin is hard on the liver. Suck it up and drive on.

    Secondly: As far as your rant about BJJers is concerned, well, I'm honestly sick of:
    Cool ... then STFU. I've listened to vacarious living rollers run off at the mouth for a few years now.

    - People misunderstanding the personal discovery process that comes with experience in BJJ. It may be rediscovery of an old principle, but it's a revelation to the individual that completely changes their own personal game. It may similarly be a revelation to others, i.e. De La Riva Guard, X-guard, Arm drag(yes, I know it's from wrestling. But there are lovely things that can be done in BJJ with it that can't be done in wrestling)
    Agreed ... a new and challenging vehicle is a great way to overcome stasis ... sometimes the only way to "get out of the rut" mode.

    - TMAers extrapolating: All BJJ guys are arrogant pricks ignorant of history, ...
    Understood and agreed. You might just sit back and reflect a bit ... there are more than a "few" BJJ'ers who have done the same deal as many Wing Chun guys ... claimed Godhead when all they really had was a means of self-expression.

    In retrospect ... no real differences of opinion between us ... no need for continuing harsh words. Different roads to the same destination. Take care, John
    Last edited by JFS USA; 8/29/2005 2:29pm at .
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