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  1. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2005 10:18am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeddy
    What degree of coldness are we talking about here? Tt can't be the same as an ice pack, as I thought the whole idea for icing things like bruises was to slow circulation and promote clotting.
    Ice does more than just that. My understanding is that it not only constricts the blood vessels thereby preventing swelling, but it also inhibits damaging enzymes from attacking the injured tissue.

    The way it benefits circulation is by working as sort of a pump. When the ice is applied for 20-30 minutes, circulation is restricted. When the ice is removed, the blood gets rapidly flushed through the area at a much greater rate than it would normally. That's why it's ice first, then heat. Not the other way around.

    I had never thought of it in terms of lactic acid, but it makes sense. It seems to me that it would work much like massage that way.

    I think that it in terms of a full body soak, it's probably a geat thing if followed up with a hot tub. I wish I had access to a cold plunge.
  2. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2005 11:19am


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    Ice does more than just that. My understanding is that it not only constricts the blood vessels thereby preventing swelling, but it also inhibits damaging enzymes from attacking the injured tissue.

    The way it benefits circulation is by working as sort of a pump. When the ice is applied for 20-30 minutes, circulation is restricted. When the ice is removed, the blood gets rapidly flushed through the area at a much greater rate than it would normally. That's why it's ice first, then heat. Not the other way around.

    I had never thought of it in terms of lactic acid, but it makes sense. It seems to me that it would work much like massage that way.

    I think that it in terms of a full body soak, it's probably a geat thing if followed up with a hot tub. I wish I had access to a cold plunge.
    Taking a shower with all or nearly all cold water is suppose to be a close second. I never thought of it as a massage, so both ideas seem to compliment.

    The point was about 'microtears' in the figers (muscle, connective tissue, bones, lungs...) that will develop scar tissue on the same micro scale. This scar tissue has edges that can do more trauma than is productive extend recovery time and all that.

    Ice, cold - as you said - squeezes and flushes that scare tissue like breakin up the frozen surface of a running river and watching the chunks float away.

    I really just don't want to be doing this too much or too little so that I am actually causing more harm than good.

    I guess track, football, marathon runners, cyclists all do some variation on this as well.

    Regular tap water might not create as deep a squeeze, but it is manageable and realistic to use for me.

    I play hockey too, so come Sept. I think I will be trying it as part of my post game activities.

    Right now, dependign on how intense the game felt, I do some wts. or cardio right after to flush out the ache from teh stop and go of hockey shifts, but using the cold treatmetn after that and a good stretch might keep me from walking like a grannie the next day. Doesn't look good to the kiddies when the teacher is hobbling around.
    Last edited by loki09789; 8/26/2005 11:22am at .
  3. Judah Maccabee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/26/2005 12:35pm

    supporting memberhall of fameBullshido Newbie
     Style: Krav / (Kick)Boxing / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A 5lb bag of ice runs for about a couple dollars or so at most grocery stores and gas stations. An ice bath isn't exactly a rarified or luxurious item.

    As for use, I was always taught to first ice for all aches and pains, even though heat might "feel better." And I ran track (sprinter) for 4 years. Shin splints, sore knees, all were treated with ice baths or with frozen Dixie cups that you peeled away to expose the ice inside.
  4. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2005 12:42pm


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by samurai_steve
    A 5lb bag of ice runs for about a couple dollars or so at most grocery stores and gas stations. An ice bath isn't exactly a rarified or luxurious item.

    As for use, I was always taught to first ice for all aches and pains, even though heat might "feel better." And I ran track (sprinter) for 4 years. Shin splints, sore knees, all were treated with ice baths or with frozen Dixie cups that you peeled away to expose the ice inside.
    Good imput from direct experience.

    I have an ice maker in the house, but it would mean using the whole bucket in one bath, ever time. My wife would flip about that water bill (even though wather is the cheapest of the utilities). Filling the tub 4 days a weak is giving me guilt trips enough.

    The tap water temp and the jacuuzi are doing well for me. Since the water isn't standing, I don't get that invisible layer of warm water around the body that can protect you from the real water outside that layer.

    When, how often and how long did your track coaches/trainers advice you apply the cold treatments?
  5. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2005 1:17pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by loki09789
    Right now, dependign on how intense the game felt, I do some wts. or cardio right after to flush out the ache from teh stop and go of hockey shifts, but using the cold treatmetn after that and a good stretch might keep me from walking like a grannie the next day. Doesn't look good to the kiddies when the teacher is hobbling around.
    I swim the day after lifting or a particularly intense training session for the same reasons.

    I also ALWAYS strecth hard after lifting and training, and when I don't I really feel it.

    You make some excellent points that I've never thought about. I'm going to try to incorporate something similar into my routine, especially since those micro-tears you speak of are not so micro anymore. It's gotten to the point where I have to ice like 5 joints! It's ridiculous.

    Thanks for bringing this up! :thumbsup:
  6. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 2:02am


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    I swim the day after lifting or a particularly intense training session for the same reasons.

    I also ALWAYS strecth hard after lifting and training, and when I don't I really feel it.

    You make some excellent points that I've never thought about. I'm going to try to incorporate something similar into my routine, especially since those micro-tears you speak of are not so micro anymore. It's gotten to the point where I have to ice like 5 joints! It's ridiculous.

    Thanks for bringing this up! :thumbsup:
    Cool stuff. Please let me know any changes pos or neg with this change in routine. I know what the research says, I like the 'massage/circulation benefits of it, and I know it seems to be making a difference but it is nice to get feedback from someone else too.
  7. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 5:16am

    Join us... or die
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We learnt about this technique called, called "cryotherapy" when I studied my Strength and Conditioning diploma. The rationale is that when the body heats up, blood flow tends to go to the extremities (arms and legs), when it gets cold blood flow tends to become central (to protect organs.) By cycling between hot and cold enviorments, such as ice baths for 1 minute then into a hot shower for 1 minute, blood is "flushed" into and out of the extremities and each flushing carries waste products built up in the muscles like lactic acid. This flushing speeds up the recovery process. Football players (australian football) will do a lot of thier recovery training sessions at the beach in winter, or in swimming pools.

    I do use hot/cold showers after swimming when doing a recovery session between weight training days.
  8. PO9 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 11:03am


     Style: Currently Inactive

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog

    The way it benefits circulation is by working as sort of a pump. When the ice is applied for 20-30 minutes, circulation is restricted. When the ice is removed, the blood gets rapidly flushed through the area at a much greater rate than it would normally. That's why it's ice first, then heat. Not the other way around.
    Are you sure? I thought it worked by restricting fluid flow to the injured area, but once you leave it on longer than 20 minutes (20 on, 20 off), the body produces a chemical that will dilate the blood vessels in the area where ice is applied negating the effects of using the ice pack in the first place.
    Who, for Pete’s sake! Is opposing science? In fact, we want MORE science by CRITICALLY ANALIZING the evidence-Connie Morris, Kansas State BOE (bolding and underlining part of original quote, red is my emphasis)


    As long as you try to treat your subjective experiences as if they were objective experiences, you will continue to be confounded by people who disagree with you.-some guy on an internet messageboard
  9. loki09789 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 11:14am


     Style: Escrima/Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PO9
    Are you sure? I thought it worked by restricting fluid flow to the injured area, but once you leave it on longer than 20 minutes (20 on, 20 off), the body produces a chemical that will dilate the blood vessels in the area where ice is applied negating the effects of using the ice pack in the first place.
    That is interesting to know because most of the fitness and medical guidelines about icing injuries and such recommend about 20 minutes of icing per session. It may very well be because of what your talking about.

    I know with stretching they usually recommend a min/max time to hold a stretch because of the bodies ability to adapt as well.

    I don't think a minute per session would do it for practical purposes for my use, but the idea of doing a light work out as part of the cool down, then a cold bath/shower OR the day after workout is mild and then a cold bath would be the same thing in theory.

    If I was at a gym during a slow time, maybe setting up side by side showers running hot/cold would be useful too. It might look a little funny if people watched though...better still the jacuzzi to a cold shower.
  10. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 11:24am

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PO9
    Are you sure? I thought it worked by restricting fluid flow to the injured area, but once you leave it on longer than 20 minutes (20 on, 20 off), the body produces a chemical that will dilate the blood vessels in the area where ice is applied negating the effects of using the ice pack in the first place.
    I'm not sure I understand your question. What you describe happening sounds consistent with my understanding, which is why you remove the ice after 20-30 minutes. I've never heard about the chemical dilating the blood vessels, but that would explain why they reccomend 20-30 on 20-30 off.

    I can't swear to any of this, but having had dozens of injuries, I can tell you that most orthopaedists and PTs believe it to be true. Ice restricts the blood vessels, and inhibits the damaging enzymes, then when you remove the ice, the vessels dilate, flushing the area. That might also be a simplified version, for my benefit.

    I can also tell you that, although it's counterintuitive, I've used ice on muscle spasms/trigger points before with much better results than heat.
    Last edited by lawdog; 8/30/2005 11:28am at .
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