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  1. daGorilla is offline

    Senior Member

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    Jun 2005
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    Seattle, WA area
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    1,043

    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:12pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by omega
    Wow, this is seriously the most logical discussion I've seen about Aikido. I'm impressed guys. Its discussions like this that I believe come up short in other style discussions. I'm not sure, just a thought. Anyway I'd be interested in the outcome here. Keep us posted.
    I concur. I totally expected this thread to quickly devolve into BJJ/MT nutriders POURING DERISION (all caps of course) on all things Ki and aikido.

    That's what typically seems to happen, anyway.

    That said, I'd love to see/hear about the "ki blast test" -- not that I expect it would ever happen.

    -daGorilla
  2. mjchip is offline

    Registered Member

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    Chelmsford, MA
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:14pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chushin Ryoku
    I'm not so sure that going along with it, whether they are a Shihan or yudansha or whatever, is such a good idea.
    This I completely agree with. In my dojo the uke (attacker) attacks with full commitment regardless of the speed of the attack. If nage (defender) does not move properly, they get hit. I will not accept anything less. This doesn't mean that we bludgeon each other just that we are trying to remain true to valid martial principles so for each action there are consequences.

    Once the initial attack is made the line between uke/nage becomes unclear. To this end, it is uke's job to attempt to stay connected to nage in order to develop his/her martial sensitivity (i.e. the ability to sense where your opponent is and is going at all times for the purpose of searching for suki or openings). Whether or not these openings are taken advantage of depends on what type of practice we are doing at that time. It is my opinion that the bulk of the martial development occurs from taking ukemi (attacking) and not from one's role as defender.

    Furthermore, simply falling down for someone based on their higher rank or where they fall on the "food chain" is of limited utility and IMO downright unproductive. In our system our ukes are trying to maintain a center to center connection so that we can learn to follow rapidly changing directions of movement. If one of my students attacks me and starts to bail out (fall before I *make* them fall), I will clearly let them know that this is NOT acceptable. If they continue to do so, I will start changing up the technique and that is where it quickly becomes clear that they should be sticking/reacting to me and not going off in their own direction (can get very hairy).

    Thoughts?

    Mark
  3. Peter H. is offline

    Professional Wrestler

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    Oct 2003
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    San Angelo, TX
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    2,470

    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:23pm


     Style: Aikido-Kickboxing-Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I hate to derail.

    But do you feel the Aiki sympathy fall prevelant? The two experiences I had with Aikijutsu and Aikido had mixed results. Sometimes I 'went with it' politely, and sometimes I jumped into that stuff to keep from getting hurt with the technique.
    I don't want to sound wishy washy, but it depends:

    Is throwing yourself out of self preservation prevalent: absolutely. If I didn't I know a few times I probably would have had a messed up wrist or shoulder. Every school teaches it, as they shoudl to prevent injury.

    Is throwing yourself despite there being no application prevalent: A tougher question. My experience says that most schools don't engage in that activity regularly, but the schools that do tend to be more popular and have higher enrollments. So while fewer schools seem to do it, they have a greater number of students. I have had students from other schools visit me and I had to nag them about throwing themselves before I did anything, and a couple of times aske them if I threw them or did they throw themselves, because I wasn't sure if I had application because the technique didn't feel right.
    "Quiet fool before I am kicking the butt!"
    -My three year old trash talking to me

    "Integrity can't be bought or sold---you either have it or you don't."
    -The Honky Tonk Man

    "If you can't be a shining example, at least be a dire warning."
    -My Father to me one day

    "No surprise. Until Aikido sheds its street-brawling, thuggish image, it'll never be mainstream."
    -Don Gwinn
  4. sanguine is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jul 2005
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:23pm


     Style: HKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I hate to derail.

    But do you feel the Aiki sympathy fall prevelant? The two experiences I had with Aikijutsu and Aikido had mixed results. Sometimes I 'went with it' politely, and sometimes I jumped into that stuff to keep from getting hurt with the technique.

    In Hapkido the techniques felt pretty real, but I was pretty green and not assertive enough at the time to call bullshit if I saw it. In Aiki I saw some bullshit, but again was respectfull not to say anything. These days I am the first one to call bullshit at anything I see.
    I tried Aikido for a bit in an effort to find something that included components I liked with less risk of reinjury (I've had some MA-related injuries). It was frustrating, because either the uke was extremely compliant or the stuff didn't work. When I asked the instructor for technical pointers (because I was working with the one other student who was a noncompliant uke, which I appreciated) he told me to not worry about details and try to get the feel.

    He also believed that Aikido was The Way, so he's on the more philosophical side of things. I won't tar all of Aikido with his brush, but my go at it was full of compliance.

    My background is in Hapkido, where we encouraged people to resist techniques as much as practical -- up until you're locked or your balance is broken, at which point you really do want to concentrate on falling safely or tapping out. In my first week of Hapkido I called suspected BS on the instructor, who then demonstrated the technique in question on me and proved me wrong (and because I can be foolishly stubborn, I almost broke my wrist trying to resist it :) ).

    But yeah, especially from that background, my Aikido experience was intensely frustrating. There was definitely pressure as uke to "go with" the techniques so that the other person could learn. But watching the instructor demo techniques, I thought that they'd mainly work on someone who massively overcommitted, and not on someone who'd kept most of their balance and didn't want to fall over.

    Again, that's my own anecdotal experience.
  5. wer is offline

    Registered Member

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    Jan 2004
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    Massachusetts
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:52pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kvetch
    Wendy,

    I see that Jason is going to fight in the next Cage Rage in the UK September 10th. Is there any chance he might put on a seminar while here? I realise it may not be good timing (!) but cage fighting aikidoka would be a nice antidote to ki blasts!

    http://www.cagerage.tv/

    Btw: please let him know that his website is like pouring molten lead into your eyes - I can barely read it.
    I'll ask him, but my guess is it won't work this time because he won't have time after the fight and he'll probably be pretty busy before it. Maybe next time.

    His site http://www.jasondelucia.com is a lot easier on the eyes. For http://www.aikidog.com you might want to bookmark the videos and forums and go straight there.
  6. wer is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:55pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mjchip
    Hey Wendy,

    What is the location of your dojo? I would love to visit to watch or train in one of Jason's classes. I can also bring some of my students with me if that is acceptable. Likewise, you folks are always welcome to come visit us as well.

    BTW, we're in Chelmsford, MA. I'm the chief instructor and we are affiliated with the USAF-WR/Birankai under the guidance of T.K. Chiba Shihan.

    Best,

    Mark
    We're in Franklin MA, and would love to have you and your students. PM me so we can set it up.
  7. Chushin Ryoku is offline

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    Frozen Tundra Wastes of Canada
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:04pm


     Style: Aikido and other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    mjchip: It certainly stands that that behaviour is not and should not be acceptable if the focus of training is to do anything at all practical with the techniques/principles. I appreciate your analysis, and your intolerance for poor ukes. What is 'your style' by the way.

    PeterH: A tricky scenario. I have had students/peers/seniors pull stuff like that and each time they did I would crack some wise ass joke about being one of those ki wielding no-touch aikido losers...and then tell them not to do it. They should be aware enough of what's happening not to have to throw themselves through the air in a desperate act of self preservation. Most people that I have encountered that do this are either 'playing along' as you an Yrkoon pointed out, or they are afraid to be thrown hard.

    And all of this should come back to the point that JKDchick made; that is, did the guy receiving the ki-blast actually know what was supposed to happen? Was he cued? Or was he just some random guy from the crowd who had no idea what to expect (unlikely). It seems that people take dives for shihans now and then (and for each other apparently), so why is this any different than any other fanatical aikido-hippie who buys into whatever spew their 'magical shihan' feeds them. We should give this Reynolds guy one of those star motif wizard hats to wear wit his hakama.
  8. mjchip is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:24pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chushin Ryoku
    mjchip: It certainly stands that that behaviour is not and should not be acceptable if the focus of training is to do anything at all practical with the techniques/principles. I appreciate your analysis, and your intolerance for poor ukes. What is 'your style' by the way.
    Our organizational affiliation is with the Birankai / USAF-WR under T.K. Chiba Shihan.

    Mark
  9. mjchip is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:28pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wer
    We're in Franklin MA, and would love to have you and your students. PM me so we can set it up.
    I tried to PM you through this board but it didn't work. Here is my email address: senseiNOSPAM@aikidojinseidojo.com (remove NOSPAM). Drop me an email and let's chat.

    Best,

    Mark
  10. KING is offline

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    New England
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 3:14pm


     Style: AIKIDO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter H.
    The problem isn't Aikido, the problem is the tree huggers who embraced the spiritual aspects without realizing that O-Sensei could do the whole peaceful/spiritual/inner light thing because he had the street skills to throwdown when necessary.
    Amen to that!
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