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  1. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 8:24pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    This only shows the typically stupid idea that many MA people have about using weapons. WC's butterfly knives are essentially slotted into the same trained skills as the empty hands... this shows their purpose to arm WC trained people with weapons. Hence their shape and size... they are deliberately constructed to be extensions to the arms, just like Freddy Krueger's bladed gloves are extensions to his fingers... (he was a good friend of Ng Mui :D).

    Now Ting's dumb idea about butterfly swords being used in the military is just that. What historical document did he use to justify that? From a military perspective they are pointless. Normally you would want weapons that allow people to fight in formation... the long spear for instance is a very good example. Or a military weapon is chosen to counter another military weapon, e.g. spears to hold out cavalry. The butterfly knives would be best used against an unarmed opponent, and perhaps their size would allow for some concealment (against the back or legs). As such their use is definitely non-military.

    A system of weapons-fighting based on unarmed principles is doomed to failure. The fact is that weapon-fighting is very different from unarmed fighting. There is a lot in common, but unless you practice fighting weapons vs weapons, you will be hopeless at it.

    I often see people who have a black-belt+ in a system who think that learning a weapon is easy. They pick up something and can't even twirl it around in a coordinated way, much less fight an armed opponent with it.


    Unarmed styles of figthing are NOT disarmed weapons fighting styles. Okay you might be able to draw some abstract, general similarities, but you can do that with a whole bunch of other things too. To think this shows a simple lack of understanding of weapons fighting, and leads to stupid errors like trying to kick someone weilding a knife.
    Military as in an unarmed public dealing with an Armed Military police. Thus the need for a concealed weapon. I sometimes joke that it started with chop sticks! Tings Idea was that the concealed knives was the starting point, and it is implied that all of these revolutionary's knew how to fight before they started in the revolution. They weren't raising an army from scratch.

    Another joke....or not.....The Chinese have a Butter knife, used to remove butter from the bucket it is made in. It looks very much like a WC butterfly knife, same thumbed hilt, shape of blade, size, etc...

    A WT principle is to train against the techniques of enemy you will face. Basic WT has defenses against JKD, Kickboxing, etc. It would seem that the Knife set would have to practice against a long pole set, in order to be effective. The founders would seek out the best pole tech in order to figure out how to beat it.

    The story is that the pole man on the Red Junk traded his pole tech for the boxing of WT. I think that he only improved the pole tech that went with the knives, so much so that it became its own form in the process.

    :5propelle

    Punchy, you do Arnis, which I assume is training with a stick. Is that to learn to fight with a stick, or also with a blade? Does your stick work transition to staff, long sword, sword and shield, etc...Does a Number two strike also make for a good hammer fist with the pummel?

    So this concept of transition allows training in one thing to reinforce another. Or do they make you start over with each weapon? Tai Chi Chuan is another example of a transitional system, not only between health and combat forms, but also from empty hand to Rod, fan, and eventually the Classic Tai Chi Sword.

    An Empty hand system my not transition to weapons at all. But a weapons system should have a empty hand component. Horizontal hooks and uppercuts are the same as staff work, Jabs are stabs, it goes on and on. The empty hand allows you to toughen up with out deep cuts.

    A key point in this is the front stance. Front stance is a weapons stance. If you Box in a front stance your knee is vulnerable to kicks. Muy Thai, Wing Whatever, Classic bare Knuckle boxing, and even BJJ use the back stance. Frees the leg for kicks and mobility and frees it from damage due to bearing your own weight.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:59pm at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
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  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 8:34pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Often this is read as, all you need to do is do the same motion as the weapons stuff without any weapons and you have the empty hand style.

    A student with this belief would go in and be hammer fisting all the time with the fist held as if a stick were in it.
    The key difference is the range. Using my #2 strike example. If you did a number 2 but the guy rushed in closer, you may hit them with the bottom of your closed hand. Just as a Hammer fist.

    If you are fighting without a weapon, then you have to adjust for the range difference, you have no contact point 20 inches out past your hand any more. There was a thread on here a few weeks ago about Russian Hooking punches. One poster related it to an old Cossacks sword stab. Same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    About the potential use of butterfly knives as a military weapon my feeling ....... They are designed I believe to be effective at the closer range of an indoor area. ie. ........Beyond the bladed forms there would need to be realistic training/sparring with weapons to get good. I mean I'd love to see someone block a full-force staff blow with the butterfly knives. Rather than just do practice at half speed and power. But its dangerous due to the forces involved.
    Yes, narrow alleys in southern China.

    Do you mean just stand there and block? Where do you learn Wing Chun? There is no blocking in Wing Chun like this?
    Can the short sworder rush forward and chain stab the staff guy as he swings? Can he redirect, turn, or move?
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 10:01pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  3. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:11pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    sorry for lengthy response

    About the differences between armed and unarmed fighting. I think its a simplification to say range is the main difference and leave it at that. I agree range is the main difference but there are also differences in the vectors of force involved, the speeds of weapons etc.

    For example the arc of a punch and a stick passing through the air are quite different. From my experience teaching FMA, we would often have people unable to even get their hand between them and the stick because they are used to blocking punches and havent factored in the arc of the incoming weapon, or the speed of it. Also things like blades can cut you without being chambered for a hit so thats a different sensitivity again. If you use arcing hammerfists (like a blade strike) for your punches there's a better more efficient way to punch where you are punching directly into the opponent with your whole body weight in a linear fashion (eg. Wing Chun) or with a cross or hook etc.

    Training and efficiency are specific. To use an analogy: I could walk around pretending to ride a horse, knocking two empty halves of coconut together and I'd still get to my location. Therefore I wouldn't need to train horse riding specifically as a separate skill. Oh yeah except its a lot more efficient to ride a horse than to walk.

    Also I never said that someone with butterfly knives would just stand there rooted to the spot while the guy with the staff swings and they just try to put a sword in the way (nice attempt to denigrate my position by putting words in my mouth). The blocking is done with a forward v-step (much like FMA) or sometimes just using a pivot (if stepping isnt necessary).

    I'm also not saying blocking a 6 foot long staff isn't possible with butterfly swords just that I'd like to see someone really demonstrate it against a full force swing in real time maybe in a weapons tournament or something. Its something I havent experienced and would love to see!

    To block weapons and follow up with footwork and attacks takes the kind of confidence you get from practising with realistic kinds of forces and speeds. I mean imagine the wrist power required to direct a staff down that is coming at you with more force than a base ball bat. It'd be best to practice at least the conditioning, timing and brutatlity aspects of that in a training environment before trying for the first time in combat. Especially if you then hope to follow up immediately with cutting/stabbing motions while stepping up the staff to the wielder. Realistic sparring is required.

    "Couldnt they rush in and chain stab" against a staff, yeah sure its an option. The risk is if the staff wielding opponent maintains the range (perhaps by stepping back) and hits with the staff. If you get hit by one good shot from the end of it, its probably going to lead to game over. Therefore you have to deal with the threat first or have very good timing (hopefully they will be a poor staff practitioner and pull back for a swing). I mean in theory someone could just charge in empty handed and deck someone with any weapon. But try it against someone who knows that weapon and has sparred with people realistically and its a whole different ball game. Batter up! :)

    In summary if empty handed skills automatically transfered over to weapons skills and vice versa. Then specific weapons or empty-hand training would be unnecessary because all of the abilities would somehow be there.
    Last edited by Lefty; 8/24/2005 10:21pm at .
  4. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:54pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. The point is that training is specific. You can't learn chi-sau and then say I am now a great chi-sau butterfly sword guy and can use these to take on people with staff/sword etc without incredible amounts of realistic training.

    Seeing as most WC people are so lame anyway, they would do better to work on punching power, strength training, and conditioing, and do sparring, than to learn a weapon that they will probably never spar with.
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 12:05am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Range was just one obvious starting point (or timing as Distance =Time), since it still evolved having a weapon in your hand. Then as you said, we can remove the weapon, get our timing correct for a real empty hand hammerfist, as our intentional strike. Adjust accordingly........I think we both could find agreement there.

    It only works as from weapons down to empty hand. It doesn't work to well the other way. A wrestler or Boxer is gonna have a hard time with transition to weapons, they will have to start from the beginning again (or TKD, Karate, Capoera, or most any art taught today by anyone)

    This is one supporting factor I find with Leung Tings idea of the style starting with the double knives. Most all of the primary Advanced secret moves were held in that form.

    Um, I guess I just read your post wrong about the sword block thing. It would be cool to see. Maybe the Dog Bros have some vids. On that topic each weapon has a specific to beat each other weapon. Long, short, two on one, empty against whatever....each a strategy and each some tactics. The “firstest with the mostest is the bestest”. my favorite saying.....But you can go crazy seconded guessing who would go first, with the most experience, doing which move against what......just read some flame wars on here :-)

    Ok, so another WT point lost on a lot of fools out there. It has the longest long pole, and the shortest double knives. This makes up the spectrum of weapons. Theoretically all concepts of bladed and blunt weapons should be contained here. (ok, you can point out some obscure things like chained ball or the Klingon battle Axe thing, but most all the concepts are there). This spectrum of ranges/applications is what makes up a transitional concept for any system.

    Specializing creates stagnation which leads to death. Wing Chun made this mistake, it specialized more and more, shaving off what it felt to extra fluff. It refined into its 6 forms specializing in the centerline attacks up through the double knives exclusively, and then the long pole set for some explosive and long concepts. It created a single transitional spectrum, a single path.

    At least it is a transitional spectrum. Most Martial arts today are about specializing. You master each thing one at a time. Eventually a transition is established by accident. or not. The concept that it all transitions together is lost.

    It is no accident the Bruce Lee was attracted to Escrima. It is no copycat syndrome that WT is always paired with Latosa Escrima Weapons System. FMA from the Visyan caves are the Total Transitional system. FMA is the concept of anything you pick up is now a weapon. If you can put WT into this perspective, the single line spins on its center and becomes a Full circle.

    I total agreed with Toms DNA example a few pages back. I think Bil Gee missed the point that the Ancestor from the past may have been totally different than the animal of today. But the DNA, the building blocks of passing on information, that is what we must look into for clues to Wing Whatever's history. There will also be signs in the movements, and connections with other martial arts that share DNA strains.

    O ya, I looked up the crane in "Outlines of Chinese Symbolism & Art Motives" By C.A.S. Williams (Kelly and Walsh, Shanghai, 1941). The Crane is the most celebrated Bird in China (after the Phoenix), and thus is the mot celebrated bird that is actually alive. It is the symbol of longevity. In legends, humans are often changed into its shape, manifesting in its peculiar interest in Human affairs. It was embroidered onto officers of the fourth grades robes in the imperial court.

    So it makes sense that in a legend of the founder, a crane or White crane Nun would be used. It is a good Chinese symbol for immortality and for Human affairs.

    Lefty, Whats the thing about the coconuts and the horse? You gonna turn me into a Newt next? I got better.......Burn the witch!!!!

    :5baby:
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 10:07pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 12:27am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    Lefty, Whats the thing about the cocconuts and the horse? You gonna turn me into a Newt next? I got better.......Burn the witch!!!!

    :5baby:
    Heh nice quote! I agree with a lot of what you said...

    Yeah my point about banging coconuts together and skipping around is that it allows people to use their skipping skills in a way as to approximate horse riding. Therefore they don't need to learn to ride a horse, they can jump on without fear. This is a lot like your and LT's argument: I learned weapons so I dont need to learn empty hands to fight empty handed.

    In the same way, if you took your buttefly swords out of your hands when doing the chain-stab you would be doing a movement approximating a chain punch, but you would be hitting with the wrong part of the hand. You'd be kind of mashing the top of your thumb/fist into them and you would hurt your wrist and do little damage.

    Therefore although the two motion are similar enough to be able to compare, to do a punch without hitting with your fist lined up in the proper way is incorrect. Like the SLT form implies "small ideas/changes may lead to big improvements". Therefore, the devil's in the detail. To say learning one is the basis for the other is acceptable to me, to say that they both are the same ting (pun intended :5bowtie:) is not.

    Similarly, I have seen a lot of empty-hand stylists come through FMA clubs. They pick up the sticks and we teach them combos that approximate say a jab, jab, hook at first. They always make the same 'mistake' in that they dont bend forward with the wrist and reach out. Therefore they don't use the full range of the weapon. If we were to not highlight this as a problem they would be crap at sticks forever. The "transition" between empty-hand to armed-hand is only the first step before specialising in the skills to be efficient in the new methods, and not the ideal end situation to be left in.

    In fact, my opinion is sometimes people from certain highly structured MAs come along to FMA and their experience has done more harm than good because they want to apply their old empty handed MA and just add weapons, rather than adopt new approaches and philosophies. These kinds of students rarely get better and instructors tend to give up trying to teach an 'expert' because of the 'ego' barrier, and they dont present a clean slate like a complete noob student would.
    Last edited by Lefty; 8/25/2005 12:53am at .
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 12:33am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Of coarse, and this I think is the specialty syndrom.

    I love those "experts" that come in to be "students" for a short while. When I ran a store front operation I would take it as a challange to see if I could shake some water out of their full cup!!! This was long before I discovered internet forums!

    I myself have taken other coarses in martial arts, outside EBMAS. I always tried to listen and learn, and not always return with "well in WT we do it like this...." but it was fun to compare with other styles.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 8/25/2005 1:19am at .
  8. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 1:17am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dude you are a slippery eel... whenever I try to point out an issue with what you have posted you change your position so that it seems that I am agreeing with you.

    What I am saying in summary is this:
    - translating empty-hands to weapon fighting styles and vice-versa is difficult due to the specificity of the training required to be good.
    - However training in one style might be a good precursor to training in another style... but a background in rugby might be a better background to have, as opposed to fencing or kendo, when someone comes to a empty-hands style like BJJ or WC.
    - WC butterfly knives are rarely practiced beyond their use in a form, and are almost never used in drills with aliveness, and probably never used in sparring. As such hardly anyone could use them in a fight. A good arnisador with a single machete (bolo) would carve most WC Grandmasters up who had 2 butterfly knives.
    - Leung Ting is the Ronald McDonald of the martial arts world. He is one of those people responsible for the sad state of kungfu in the world, just as much as McDonald's is almost synonymous with the decreasing quality of the Western diet.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 1:40am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HAAAA HAAAA Ting is Mcdonald!! Man I can't wait to use that one in the real world (spoken out loud).

    Most WC masters made the swords up themselves, so yes, they only do the form, and they will die to even some beginner Orce slayer on his fifth Saturday, from the guys that dress in European Armor on the weekends.

    and yes I am slippery.....My opinioin, knowlegde, and theory grows with each post I read and each referense I look up. I am not some trolling Ting Cultist. I have learned that on forums, you must be short, and people will always read it wrong. You gotta stay on target and work together, even when in complete disagrement. Plato called it Dialoge, or was that Hegel?

    I even learn new stuff just typing it into Bullshido.....

    But your wrong about Ting.......he is a real Doctor.
  10. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 1:54am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are so proud to be associated with Leung Ting (and his amazing Chun Wing) why dont you update your profle and show us what MA experience you actually have.
  11. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 4:24am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must have been overly tired yesterday.
    Here I was, being so dismissive of the wing chun assassin theory, but now I realise that it makes perfect sense,

    :icon_thum


    once two small qualifiers are taken into consideration:
    1 - you don't know what form wing chun took back in those days
    2 - you don't know how assassins operated




    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    I do wonder how the Wing Chun of today would compare with the Wing Chun of the turn of the century, particularly in the emphasis of its use of weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    As for the infiltration/assassin theory, I guess the best bet at confirming or denying that is to look at what the tactics that where used at the time. There must be some record of this kind of activity somewhere?

    Sorry I hadn't applied the appropriate intellectual rigour a day ago.
  12. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 4:42am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    On the topic of Doctor Leung Ting, I saw with considerable amusement the photo of him a couple of months back on the cover of KungFu Taichi Magazine (which is an outstanding source of wall to wall Chinese martial arts Bullshido, open any page and you are sure to get your fill).

    But, at any rate back to Dr. Tings cover photo. What I was really wondering is, did they shove a corncob up his ass prior to the photo shoot or does he always wear that stupid expression? He perhaps should pay a visit to some of his proctologist friends.

    I ask that stupid and sarcastic question not to get banned from this site but simply to reflect the fact this whole thread has gone nowhere so might as well have some laughs.

    One serious comment I would make is this. Wing Chun has over the past 50 or so years had some outstanding practitioners. We would all do well to focus on the legit history of Wing Chun and on its skilled modern day practitioners rather that drone about some flake like Ting. Oh by the way did he ever settle up with that Turkish guy he fucked over? Well, probably not.

    I realize too, this ain’t my thread, I am new here so I should probably mind my own business. So I will. Thanks for the laughs.

    Take care,
    Brian
  13. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 4:49am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You wont get banned from this site for giving WC ****. It cops it in droves all over Bullshido.... and it is Leung Ting, and the many other WC McDojo owners out there, that are largely to blame.
  14. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 5:58am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    I must have been overly tired yesterday.
    Here I was, being so dismissive of the wing chun assassin theory, but now I realise that it makes perfect sense,

    :icon_thum


    once two small qualifiers are taken into consideration:
    1 - you don't know what form wing chun took back in those days
    2 - you don't know how assassins operated

    Sorry I hadn't applied the appropriate intellectual rigour a day ago.
    Hi, thanks for the points you made, however, I won't be answering them because you're stupid.
  15. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2005 6:59am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    It only works as from weapons down to empty hand. It doesn't work to well the other way. A wrestler or Boxer is gonna have a hard time with transition to weapons, they will have to start from the begining again (or TKD, Karate, Capoera, or most any art taught today by anyone)

    How does that statement square up with this one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    All these other forms came in over time, as the teachers added stuff to the beginner proram to keep from showing them the knives until they showed they where worthy.
    You seemed to imply earlier in the thread that knives were the real _ng _un. Then going on to add that the unarmed forms were busy work, intended to keep students occupied until they had proven themselves worthy of proper instruction. You also imply that the knife fighting moves are hidden in the unarmed forms.

    But more recently you're saying that students can easily make the transition from weapons to empty-hand arts, but it doesn't work the other way round?

    Doesn't that contradict the idea of _ng _un having secret knife fighting techniques hidden in the unarmed forms? What would the point be?
    Am I missing something here?
    Are you telling us that _ng _un is really a knife fighting style that is prefaced with three years of non-applicable unarmed training?
    Last edited by pox; 8/25/2005 7:06am at .
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