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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:55am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Tom points out that militarys use Jui-jitsu like tech. If I looked at BJJ would I see any of this? Could I look a BJJ and reject Jui-Jitsu as a military source? No striking, strictly one on one and one the ground.
    I do not know Brazilian Jujitsu. Without commenting on your interpretation of it, I'll still go out on a limb to suggest that a decent practitioner will be able to point out the miltary markers within its style's blueprint. Either that, or show you a copy of the U.S. Army Field Manual on Combatives training document ID # FM-25.150.

    You can argue that BJJ is impractical for what is really needed by an army and/or that the U.S. Department of Defense is making a huge mistake. But it is hard to deny the military pedigree found within BJJ's markers.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/24/2005 12:11pm at .
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 12:35pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    Your points are quite reasonable. However, I'm not sure that analysing the style as it is taught today, is that reliable a means. Looking at the different lineages , how the training has been watered down with Chi/Feng Shui and other such crap, looking at how many schools have made it easier just to keep people coming through the door etc. I do wonder how the Wing Chun of today would compare with the Wing Chun of the turn of the century, particularly in the emphasis of its use of weapons.
    Someone right about now should chime in and say "If only you were learning the real stuff." :smile:

    I don't deny that the rapid proliferation of the art in a civilian population spanning many cultures in the last half century has caused huge growing pains and mass confusion making such an endeavor vastly more difficult. And while some currently doing the cross-checking may have a conflicting agenda, I just don't think it's an impossible task.


    As far as weapons even one hundred years ago, we still have to remember the style was developed during the age of gunpowder. A clear progression from roughly the 16th century onward can be mapped out for what is essentially a secondary small-arms weapon relagated to a utility role (short blades) and an obsolete one (an 8 1/2 to 14 foot long pole). It's hard to expect that the tactics of a military role for such an arsenal, even if you add some style variants as "darts", "fans" and miscellaneous whatnot, have changed dramatically. There would be too much evidence found elsewhere in the world at large if such a rapid change were true - as it is for gunpowder.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/24/2005 12:42pm at .
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:19pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    Amen. Anybody who describes himself as an '11th level master of almightiness' is clearly a twat.
    Ting gave himself the 10th level, Master of Comprehension, when he created the IWTA, and as the founder, that makes sense. He has not promoted himself beyond that in the 33 years of WT. He is not some Grandmaster Flashypants that has a new level every time you see him....

    Kernspecht, in Germany, Reached the level 10 in the Late 1990's and thus became the official head man of his territory. This in turn moved Ting into 11th level, retirement, in the EWTO territory. There can only be one 10th level for a region.

    Ting did not "Give Himself" the 11th level!! Please show me where Leung Ting describes himself as 11th MOA. His students may do it, but I have not seen him do it, except as reference to Europe and EWTO.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:48pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
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  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:26pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tom, I agree it is hard to trace current Martial arts military roots back to when they may have had them. BJJ as it is, would have no use in the days of sword and armor, although current US Army uses it for moral building and physical conditioning. and it did come from a military art, Jui-jitsu.

    BJJ is a specialized subset of the total Jui-Jitsu package. Wing Chun today, and for a long time, is also a subset of some bigger, broader Martial art. Both where refined from something bigger to something more specialized.

    What Wing Chun was derived from is the question. I think it has many things that would go with old style battle/ combat. I do not think it always took 3 years to learn either. Even so, ancient warfare often did have long periods between battles.

    :XXhippylo
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:49pm at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:01pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Tom, I agree it is hard to trace current Martial arts military roots back to when they may have had them. BJJ as it is, would have no use in the days of sword and armor, although current US Army uses it for moral building and physical conditioning. and it did come from a military art, Jui-jitsu.

    BJJ is a specialized subset of the total Jui-Jitsu package. Wing Chun today, and for a long time, is also a subset of some bigger, broader Martial art. Both where refined from something bigger to something more specialized.

    What Wing Chun was derived from is the question. I think it has many things that would go with old style battle/ combat. I do not think it always took 3 years to learn either. Even so, ancient warfare often did have long periods between battles.

    :XXhippylo
    While you have a point in regards to the possibility that "it has many things that would go with old style battle/combat", I don't think that is shown in the blueprints and is just a coincidence of somewhat overlapping goals in its design.

    Objects have a nature. Something as small as a box-cutter or as large as a Boeing 767 has an intended purpose which can can be reasonably deduced from objective observation of the respective object's "markers" when transposed on both similar and dissimilar objects. As evidenced by a 16 acre, 7 story deep pit directly across the street from where I sit, we are sometimes surprised how things can be used for purposes other than what was originally intended. But that doesn't change the fact that a 767 aircraft is meant for transportation, and a box-cutter (a weapon of choice in NYC) is still meant for opening boxes.

    While it is certainly possible to learn the style in a shorter period, there does appear to be markers, such as the training progression inversion, which are borne out by history to hinder the compression of the learning process. Regardless of the "downtime" between battles, it's hard to reconcile them with the idea that legions of people were being trained secretly and on the run with a special method intended to overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming - an inverted method, I might add, with no strong evidence of being used for military purposes before or since.

    Look at the military styles today: Jujitsu/Judo, Sambo, Krav Mage, etc. They don't have this inversion. You can, however, find it in styles with a stronger tie to a civilian pedigree, especially originating near the same region. So, a case can be made that inverting it is insane (LOL) or the true purpose of doing this has nothing to do with the needs of a militaristic secret societies complete with their own code of speaking and secret salute. (Hey, is this beginning to sound like a frat house? :smile:)
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/24/2005 2:17pm at .
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:02pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Ting did not "Give Himself" the 11th level!! Please show me where Leung Ting discribes himself as 11th MOA. His students may do it, but I have not seen him do it, except as reference to Europe and EWTO.
    He made up the whole system of levels, including the goofy title 'master of comprehension'. If somebody else gets promoted to 10th level, and a system he created pushes him to 11th level, then that counts as self promotion.

    Here is a page showing the use of the title 'Master of Almightiness' :-

    http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/english/...g/grad_gm.html

    This is the page of the guy who got promoted to '10th level'.

    Whatever. All these made up D & D levels are bullshit and do nothing but reinforce DrummerBoy's observation that Leung Ting is running a multi-level marketing operation.
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 2:58pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    He made up the whole system of levels, including the goofy title 'master of comprehension'. If somebody else gets promoted to 10th level, and a system he created pushes him to 11th level, then that counts as self promotion.

    Here is a page showing the use of the title 'Master of Almightiness' :-

    http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/english/...g/grad_gm.html

    This is the page of the guy who got promoted to '10th level'.

    Whatever. All these made up D & D levels are bullshit and do nothing but reinforce DrummerBoy's observation that Leung Ting is running a multi-level marketing operation.
    ok, so I will tell my friends in the military that their ranks are just D and D bullshit, and of coarse we need to stop electing presidents, and stop having CEO's of corporations, and I will approach the local school board and ask them to stop having Grades and College levels, and stop awarding degrees, since it fosters your Bullshit meter..... The next time my Si-fu comes for a seminar, I will have my students all not wear their ranks so he has to guess what material they have covered.

    That will be fun, we can all be equal, regardless of achievement or value, and live in a Liberal La La land..... :new_alien

    When Ting made his system, he put himself at the top, put out what it takes to be his equal, and tested people to do it. He created a school system, not a D and D players hand book. Learn the difference.

    And who's not running a Multi-level marketing operation? UFC was a marketing operation by the Gracies, so successful that other events copied the format. Gracies and other BJJ got a lot of customers out of it, too. And they use Belts to denote rank, I think....It is just the business side of things.

    Some use it to cheat people, as in West Wind, and some use it to promote legit systems, as in Gracie Jui-Jitsu. You can not use a Multi level Marketing System to discredit a Martial Art on its own, you have look at the material for that.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:52pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  8. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 3:09pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    ok, so I will tell my friends in the military that their ranks are just D and D bullshit
    Their ranks aren't self-awarded.

    , and offcoarse we need to stop electing presidents
    Neither are theirs.

    , and stop having CEO's of corperations
    Neither are theirs.

    , and I will approach the local school board and ask them to stop having Grades and College levels, and stop awarding degrees, since it fosters your Bullshit meter.....
    None of those things are self-awarded either.

    The next time my Si-fu comes for a seminar, I will have my students all not wear their ranks so he has to guess what material they have covered.
    Belt systems work fine for many people, but doesn't the title 'Master of Almightiness' seem just a little 'grandiose' for you ?

    When Ting made his system, he put himself at the top, put out what it takes to be his equal, and tested people to do it. He created a school system, not a D and D players hand book. Learn the difference.
    The D & D comparison comes from the grandiose titles given those self-awarded levels.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 3:57pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well all of these things started somewhere, with someone being the first self awarded General, or school founder, or whatever...

    and when you start a company, you generally do start as the CEO, or some such title....

    The Titles do sound funny, I agree, but so do many of the titles your hear at a University Graduation (Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude, Summa Cum Laude). These titles are the same thing as Bachalor of Science (BS), Masters (MS), or Doctorate in Philosophy (Phd), that you put after your name on your letterhead, but for his school system. Thus M.O.C. or M.O.A. Since Almightyness is for a retired figure, it is kinda a term of respect. Master of Comprehension is not grandiose.

    But I can see where you are coming from, since WT is the only Martial Art I know of that approaches teaching in this scholastic format, with primary grades, middle school and high school grades (k through 12), four college technical levels (associates through PhD) four Post graduate levels, and 2 University "President" levels.

    Belts are for holding up pants......

    :chewy:
  10. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 4:46pm


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    LT and KK are selling pure thin air.
    They used to charge $1000 to teach you chisau.

    There's not a single credible piece of evidence of LT sparring anyone. Not his students, not KK, anybody.

    LT latches onto people who are natural athletes like KK, Boztepe etc to make it seem like his sysem works.

    He misuses the fact that he is Chinese and that his stuff is very difficult to check. WT is MUCH bigger in Germany/Europe than in Hong Kong for precisely that reason.

    LTs seminars consist of 1 hr of siu-nim-tao, 1 hr of tan sau punch drill and 1 hour of photo op with autograph session. I got more workout working my yard.

    There's strong evidence that LT published a falsified master-student photo of him and YipMan.

    etc etc

    WT is a cult with all the bells and whistles.

    Ok I am done. I get pissed like this only once a year.

    Tomas

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Well all of these things started somewhere, with someone being the first self awarded General, or school founder, or whatever...

    and when you start a company, you generally do start as the CEO, or some such title....

    The Titles do sound funny, I agree, but so do many of the titles your hear at a University Graduation (Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude, Summa Cum Laude). These titles are the same thing as Bachalor of Science (BS), Masters (MS), or Doctorate in Philosophy (Phd), that you put after your name on your letterhead, but for his school system. Thus M.O.C. or M.O.A. Since Almightyness is for a retired figure, it is kinda a term of respect. Master of Comprehension is not grandiose.

    But I can see where you are coming from, since WT is the only Martial Art I know of that approaches teaching in this scholastic format, with primary grades, middle school and high school grades (k through 12), four college technical levels (associates through PhD) four Post graduate levels, and 2 University "President" levels.

    Belts are for holding up pants......

    :chewy:
    Current stage of death: denial
  11. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:19pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    LT latches onto people who are natural athletes like KK, Boztepe etc to make it seem like his sysem works.
    OK, most of that sounds credible apart from the above which just seems churlish.
    Last edited by Bil Gee; 8/24/2005 6:59pm at .
  12. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:52pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    LT and KK are selling pure thin air.
    They used to charge $1000 to teach you chisau.

    There's not a single credible piece of evidence of LT sparring anyone. Not his students, not KK, anybody.

    LT latches onto people who are natural athletes like KK, Boztepe etc to make it seem like his sysem works.

    He misuses the fact that he is Chinese and that his stuff is very difficult to check. WT is MUCH bigger in Germany/Europe than in Hong Kong for precisely that reason.

    LTs seminars consist of 1 hr of siu-nim-tao, 1 hr of tan sau punch drill and 1 hour of photo op with autograph session. I got more workout working my yard.

    There's strong evidence that LT published a falsified master-student photo of him and YipMan.

    etc etc

    WT is a cult with all the bells and whistles.

    Ok I am done. I get pissed like this only once a year.

    Tomas
    I think anyone who looks at Leung Ting's organisation, who has experience in doing martial arts outside of a mega-organisation, can't escape the following truths: enormous quantities of merchandising, 'productising' of martial arts training methods and techniques (e.g. Blitzdefense TM), huge amounts of fees, and uniforming and belt system designed to enhance retaining recruits.

    LT's WT is a Mega-McDojo that spans the globe. He is selling escapism to people packaged under the label of light recreational MA. WT may well be one of the richest MA companies in the world.

    Unfortunately his organisation is just one of many.
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 8/24/2005 6:54pm at .
  13. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:55pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    What Wing Chun was derived from is the question. I think it has many things that would go with old style battle/ combat. I do not think it always took 3 years to learn either. Even so, ancient warfare often did have long periods between battles.

    :XXhippylo
    I think that's good point. I'm not sure how long it would take someone working at the system full time to learn enough to make it workable.
  14. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:11pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    :new_icecr

    The concept of WT is to move around obstructions. Chi Sau (empty hand) works on this effect. If You can not roll around, you create a block. All the Empty hand transitions to the double knives.

    Example: Bong/Kwan/Fak
    sword(using escrima terms) Interupted #2, to rolling hammer fist to #2 again. all with swords ofcoarse

    Tings idea was that the swords where the secret military thing, and that some chi sau drills where created to store muscle reflex.

    .........

    Wing Chun came about in a period where the public was not allowed weapons. Whatever the source, it could have been an attempt to create a specific empty hand fighting art. Most "empty hand" arts are really just disarmed weapons arts. Yes, this contradicts the Butterfly Sword start theory! just putting it out there. :new_blueg
    This only shows the typically stupid idea that many MA people have about using weapons. WC's butterfly knives are essentially slotted into the same trained skills as the empty hands... this shows their purpose to arm WC trained people with weapons. Hence their shape and size... they are deliberately constructed to be extensions to the arms, just like Freddy Krueger's bladed gloves are extensions to his fingers... (he was a good friend of Ng Mui :D).

    Now Ting's dumb idea about butterfly swords being used in the military is just that. What historical document did he use to justify that? From a military perspective they are pointless. Normally you would want weapons that allow people to fight in formation... the long spear for instance is a very good example. Or a military weapon is chosen to counter another military weapon, e.g. spears to hold out cavalry. The butterfly knives would be best used against an unarmed opponent, and perhaps their size would allow for some concealment (against the back or legs). As such their use is definitely non-military.

    A system of weapons-fighting based on unarmed principles is doomed to failure. The fact is that weapon-fighting is very different from unarmed fighting. There is a lot in common, but unless you practice fighting weapons vs weapons, you will be hopeless at it.

    I often see people who have a black-belt+ in a system who think that learning a weapon is easy. They pick up something and can't even twirl it around in a coordinated way, much less fight an armed opponent with it.


    Unarmed styles of figthing are NOT disarmed weapons fighting styles. Okay you might be able to draw some abstract, general similarities, but you can do that with a whole bunch of other things too. To think this shows a simple lack of understanding of weapons fighting, and leads to stupid errors like trying to kick someone weilding a knife.
  15. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:37pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah Punchy, I fully agree. Coming from an FMA perspective often the reverse is said. ie. learn weapons and the empty hands skills will directly result from that. Often this is read as, all you need to do is do the same motion as the weapons stuff without any weapons and you have the empty hand style.

    A student with this belief would go in and be hammer fisting all the time with the fist held as if a stick were in it. Obviously, this notion needs to be developed further to say something like the empty hands component of using the 'live' hand and the kick-boxing/grappling type aspects of pangamut should be refined for this purpose. Sure some elements of the weapon moves could also be added, as refined for the specific need, but just copying the movements you have with a weapon is going to lead to arcing type strike moves suited to a stick and not a direct straight punch or a hook type motion. My point is training is specific and things dont transfer over in an abstract way. I mean if a TKD person said legs transfers over to hands It'd be obviously ridiculous.

    About the potential use of butterfly knives as a military weapon my feeling is that they would be better in an enclosed space than a pole or spear. They are designed I believe to be effective at the closer range of an indoor area. ie. if you wanted to go into a building and bust everyone up you could because it'd be hard to swing a big weapon (eg. the pole) and the power of the blades comes from short-range power generation from the hand forms and they are awesome vs an unarmed opponent.

    Beyond the bladed forms there would need to be realistic training/sparring with weapons to get good. I mean I'd love to see someone block a full-force staff blow with the butterfly knives. Rather than just do practice at half speed and power. But its dangerous due to the forces involved.
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