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  1. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:05am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy
    Hope this helps a bit.
    Hi Brian
    good post
    and, for me at least, the most (only?) plausible theory about the origins of the style
  2. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:16am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    The main point of Tom's post was this:


    He went to the trouble of outlining his reasons for arriving at this particular conclusion.
    It seems to me that you don't have an open mind at all, and have demonstrated this by picking on one, quite irrelevant, section in Tom's post to disregard everything that he said. Do you have any opinion on anything else he said? Are you trying to imply that the application of common-sense and logic aren't enough to debunk an unverifiable, unsubstantiated, and quite preposterous claim that you happened to chance upon?
    The points that I didn't address are points that I wouldn't take issue with. I just wanted to check what sources he used for insurgency tactics during that period. Your loyalty to your friend brings a tear to my eye, but he seems able to speak for himself.
  3. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:50am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    The points that I didn't address are points that I wouldn't take issue with. I just wanted to check what sources he used for insurgency tactics during that period. Your loyalty to your friend brings a tear to my eye, but he seems able to speak for himself.
    Again, what relevance does this have to the discussion?
    To recap:
    You say the style was developed for assassins
    Tom rubbishes this theory
    Dr._Tzun_Tzu - believes that _ng _un was a style developed by rebels to fight the manchurians.
    You then decided you liked this theory. Advancing, as proof, the fact that it could be taught to footsoldiers relatively quickly (3 years)
    Tom - gave a number of reasons why this wouldn't fly, not least of which being the point that the superspeedy training period is still somewhere in the region of 132 to 150 weeks longer than would be expected in military training and the complete absence of any documentary proof.
    You say you're not arguing with these points.

    If you don't have an issue with the other points that were made, why are you making an issue of the insurgency tactics? If the rest of his post has completely rubbished the theory of _ng _un as a military H2H style, where is this going? Does it belong in the history forum or in the idle speculation forum
    Last edited by pox; 8/24/2005 10:52am at .
  4. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 8:08am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    My version is that the clans of China all banded together to fight the Manchurians. All Kung Fu was refined by the rebel leaders into a fast quick to learn simple style.
    Are you referring to the Taiping rebellion?
  5. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 9:47am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    Again, what relevance does this have to the discussion?
    To recap:
    You say the style was developed for assassins
    Tom rubbishes this theory
    Dr._Tzun_Tzu - believes that _ng _un was a style developed by rebels to fight the manchurians.
    You then decided you liked this theory. Advancing, as proof, the fact that it could be taught to footsoldiers relatively quickly (3 years)
    Tom - gave a number of reasons why this wouldn't fly, not least of which being the point that the superspeedy training period is still somewhere in the region of 132 to 150 weeks longer than would be expected in military training and the complete absence of any documentary proof.
    You say you're not arguing with these points.

    If you don't have an issue with the other points that were made, why are you maing an issue of the insurgency tactics? If the rest of his post has completely rubbished the theory of _ng _un as a military H2H style, where is this going? Does it belong in the history forum or in the idle speculation forum
    To recap I said nothing.

    Read the thread where you see I ask questions, and asked for peoples views on how Wing Chun developed. I have no pet theories.

    There's a lot of bullshit in martial arts and this site is a testimony to that fact. Just because someone proposes a theory doesn't mean that I have to accept it or reject it immediately. The sensible thing to do is to point out any issues I may have and see how they are addressed.

    The rest of the post didn't read like it was put together on the basis of anything more than watching a few combat films and maybe reading a couple of ninja books, unless he's got something to back it up. It's credible but not to the point of being the last word on the subject by a long mark.

    Now why don't you **** off and troll elsewhere, 'cos you're adding nothing to this discussion at all. You're just trying to turn it into another flame fest.
    Last edited by Bil Gee; 8/24/2005 9:57am at .
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:08am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    The points that I didn't address are points that I wouldn't take issue with. I just wanted to check what sources he used for insurgency tactics during that period. Your loyalty to your friend brings a tear to my eye, but he seems able to speak for himself.

    I don't know anyone named pox. Maybe he's a stalker. :smile:


    Suppose someone claimed the style came from little purple men from the planet Sargon in the 5th Solar System of Galaxy to the right of Andromeda, and someone else pointed out that doesn't quite make sense. I suppose it could be considered reasonable for the person making the original claim to ask for proof the people of Planet Sargon didn't bestow such wisdom (or drivel, depending on your point of view) exclusively on peasant performers touring on a Red Boat in Southern China.


    I don't have any problem with you asking the questions you did. I am just pointing out that by examining the style itself will give valid and plausible cues as to its origins. This is exactly why scientists collide atoms which exist in the here and now to try and find answers to what may have happened long ago.

    Is contending that a theory is implausible also speculation? Perhaps. But if people pursue folklore as history, at least there should be an attempt at some connection. The only real, concrete, and genuine reference we have to examine in this instance is the style itself and what little is known of the surrounding world today. In my opinion as laid out before, the assassin and military folklore don't have a strong enough connection as expressed in the style to be plausible.

    BTW, I don't know anything about ninjas. I was thinking of Jujitsu, actually. It, its ancestors, and ts descendants are the basis of nearly every military's combative hand-to-hand training.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/24/2005 10:14am at .
  7. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:23am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee

    There's a lot of bullshit in martial arts and this site is a testimony to that fact. Just because someone proposes a theory doesn't mean that I have to accept it or reject it immediately. The sensible thing to do is to point out any issues I may have and see how they are addressed.
    The other sensible thing to do is to take into account issues that others may raise with the theories that you've proposed and attempt to address them, rather than trying to obfuscate the matter with pointless digressions.
  8. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:35am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    :new_icecr
    What, once you have over 100,000 students suddenly your full of ****? Dr. Leung Ting has visited everyone in WC from all branches left alive, has documented the history in print and film, has published books and articles, and has footnotes in his books even. His stuff makes sense.
    I met LT in 1993. He is a crook.
    His org is a multilevel marketing scheme.
    His seminars = brainwashing sessions.

    That's all I've got to say.
    I'm sorry you can't see it.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
  9. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:44am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy

    I'm sorry you can't see it.
    Eye poke wins again!
  10. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 10:53am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    I met LT in 1993. He is a crook.
    His org is a multilevel marketing scheme.
    His seminars = brainwashing sessions.

    That's all I've got to say.
    I'm sorry you can't see it.

    Tomas
    Can you describe how his seminars were brainwashing sessions?
  11. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    I met LT in 1993. He is a crook.
    His org is a multilevel marketing scheme.
    His seminars = brainwashing sessions.

    That's all I've got to say.
    I'm sorry you can't see it.

    Tomas
    Amen. Anybody who describes himself as an '11th level master of almightiness' is clearly a twat.
  12. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:01am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I don't know anyone named pox. Maybe he's a stalker. :smile:


    Suppose someone claimed the style came from little purple men from the planet Sargon in the 5th Solar System of Galaxy to the right of Andromeda, and someone else pointed out that doesn't quite make sense. I suppose it could be considered reasonable for the person making the original claim to ask for proof the people of Planet Sargon didn't bestow such wisdom (or drivel, depending on your point of view) exclusively on peasant performers touring on a Red Boat in Southern China.


    I don't have any problem with you asking the questions you did. I am just pointing out that by examining the style itself will give valid and plausible cues as to its origins. This is exactly why scientists collide atoms which exist in the here and now to try and find answers to what may have happened long ago.

    Is contending that a theory is implausible also speculation? Perhaps. But if people pursue folklore as history, at least there should be an attempt at some connection. The only real, concrete, and genuine reference we have to examine in this instance is the style itself and what little is known of the surrounding world today. In my opinion as laid out before, the assassin and military folklore don't have a strong enough connection as expressed in the style to be plausible.

    BTW, I don't know anything about ninjas. I was thinking of Jujitsu, actually. It, its ancestors, and ts descendants are the basis of nearly every military's combative hand-to-hand training.
    Your points are quite reasonable. However, I'm not sure that analysing the style as it is taught today, is that reliable a means. Looking at the different lineages , how the training has been watered down with Chi/Feng Shui and other such crap, looking at how many schools have made it easier just to keep people coming through the door etc. I do wonder how the Wing Chun of today would compare with the Wing Chun of the turn of the century, particularly in the emphasis of its use of weapons.

    By the time it got to Yip Man it seems to have become a life-long study rather than a quick and dirty method of training.

    The only thing that seems certain to me at the moment is that it was developed as a stripped down form of some other southern martial art.

    As for the infiltration/assassin theory, I guess the best bet at confirming or denying that is to look at what the tactics that where used at the time. There must be some record of this kind of activity somewhere?
  13. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:26am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    Eye poke wins again!
    Ha, that was real good....... :occasion1


    Quote Originally Posted by drummerboy
    I met LT in 1993. He is a crook.
    His org is a multilevel marketing scheme.
    His seminars = brainwashing sessions.

    That's all I've got to say.
    I'm sorry you can't see it.

    Tomas
    I will agree that Multi-level organizations use many tactics that are somewhat cultist or crooks. I also agree that Leung Ting gave some pretty shitty seminars in the USA in the 1990's. Unless you went to seminars at the LAHQ for AWTO, you didn't get much. But since he wanted $1000 a head and Si-fu Emin organized it so we only paid $100 each, Ting only gave out a tenth of what he would have.

    I still value his research and his theory of fighting and Martial arts, I just get my Lessons from Emin Boztepe now......


    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    Are you referring to the Taiping rebellion?
    Is that when the Manchurians came in and overthrew the Dynasty of the Emperor? I haven't read about that stuff in 6 or 7 years. It ties in with the secret society stuff, return the emperor to his throne, etc... I will look it up after work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Bwahaha! the pun on the nun is kinda fun.

    But seriously, I've been told it was unheard of for female monks to live inside the temples with the men. Too much risk of monkey business :).............


    ..........the guilty party's family down to nine generations and execute them as traitors as well. Teaching Yim Wing Chun a martial arts would directly put her life at risk"

    http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/me...threvealed.php
    Very true. One point, she was claimed to be a very high level Nun/Monk. One would expect someone of that caliber to be trusted around the menfolk. Maybe she was traveling and only staying at the Monastery, maybe they had a separate building outside for her, but that she was there to teach the other elder monks, which is how she escaped the famous fire.

    The most plausible story may be that she was there as an elder meeting up with other elders when the Military tracked them down, and the monastery was destroyed because of the secret meeting they where having.

    So the Legend for me has about 30% possibility of a true Nun.

    Also, she had no family to hunt down, she taught Yim Wing Chun to fight self defense, not to fight a revolution, and Yim lived very far in the south, away from the rulers.

    Tom points out that military use Jui-jitsu like tech. If I looked at BJJ would I see any of this? Could I look a BJJ and reject Jui-Jitsu as a military source? No striking, strictly one on one and one the ground....From the Nun on to the little girl, it was taught as self defense, not military or assasian. The Nun may have had the Military skills however.

    The Red Junk Opera may have then used it to enhance their own military/espionage plots.

    There are a few more origin story's......Several of them tie into the secret society's, the triads, which became criminal gangs in modern times. Apparently the Triads used the Shaolin story as some sort of secret cover story and code words. Being a Criminal revolutionary group, they would create secret cells, with only a few knowing of the others and even fewer knowing the true purpose. This is why so many martial arts claim to be from Shaolin!! It was really from the triads of old.

    Kinda like Osama raising Islamic terrorists cells to do his biding, when only he knows he really works for the CIA..... :5usaribbo (just a vague possibility used as an example, no need to argue about if it is true or not....)

    It is funny, many of the WC family's that deny the Nun, trace roots to some temple that was burned down, and some male Shaolin Monks. But the whole burned temple story was made up! The NUN that didn't exist is part of this story, so you can't just take her out, you gotta take the whole thing out. And the Shaolin temple is still standing.

    I gotta go to work, I will put some data in from books on this later....
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:45pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  14. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:35am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    It's widely accepted that the myth of the origin of WC involving Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is exactly that, a myth. I mean how many female monks where there? None....
    I'm just being a pixie here, but if you start to scratch the surface of the history the of Hakka people of Fukien province and their interpretation of words translated as "nun" and where they might cohabitate, you may find such unequivocal statements to become a little bit more murky than what is espoused by my classmate at the museum.



    That reminds me of an interesting marker of the style: the pigeon toed stance.

    Modern sports medicine has begun to document that balance training is more important for a woman than it is for a man in order to protect the knee from injury. This has to do with the "Angle Q": the relation of the hip/thigh distance away from the body's center of gravity.

    Guess what? You can use an EMG meter on the calf to show that turning the toes inward via inward rotation of the hip shows greater activation of the muscles used by the human body for balance. It's also interesting to note sprinting coaches will suggest a pigeon toed stride to some runners to help correct muscular imbalance problems in their running styles. Care to speculate which sex usually needs this stage in training?

    Very few people claim the specific pigeon toed posture of YiJiKimYeungMa found within the first form is anything other than a training tool. Did the ancestors of the style know what they were doing might help a woman a little more than a man? It's an interesting speculation.

    (okay, now I'm having some real Plum Pixie fun!)

    :headbang:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/24/2005 11:44am at .
  15. dramaboy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 11:54am


     Style: -

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    Can you describe how his seminars were brainwashing sessions?
    Don't have time to write now, but check my old posts on LT, it's all there.

    Tomas
    Current stage of death: denial
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