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  1. Jaric is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 10:07am


     Style: Maybe Kyokushin soon...

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am just curious about something. Who here practices WC and used the 'pigeon toed stance' for something other then training? We use it to practice punching and kicking, but use a very different stance for fighting. I am from the Fong lineage by the by.


    Oh and who here can correctly name that stance in Cantonese?
    I know its starts with 'yee kee something something
    and it means something like number two goat restraining stance:)


    And for all those non WC trolling this topic: Dont make fun! When you properly go into the stance it looks like your trying to restrain a damn goat
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 11:53am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaric
    And for all those non WC trolling this topic: Dont make fun! When you properly go into the stance it looks like your trying to restrain a damn goat
    LOL.

    How about me? Is it okay if I make fun of comparing it to how to restrain a goat, damned or not?

  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/08/2005 12:12pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sifu Pang Nam is covered in detail in "Roots of WT" as well. On page 43, his origin story is reviewed. He believes that Weng Chun and Wing Tsun (2 differnt chinese character sets) are one and the same style. :XXcompute

    The Weng Chun style was founded by Yat Chan Um Chu or "A piece of Dust the Master of a Buddhist Nunnery" in the years of Chien Lung (1736 to 1795) and Chia Ching (1796 to 1820). He lived in a temple on Mt. Heng Shan in Hunan Provonce for 13 years. There he taught a student who was nicknamed Tan-Sau-Ng.

    Tan-Sau-Ng was a famous actor of the Opera and later went to the north and worked for the "Jade Flower Society" in Fatshan. At this time he taught Wong Wa Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, Lai Fook Sheun, and others.

    In this story there is obviously no Ng Mui or Yim Wing Tsun. Also, the two founders are Northern Chinese not Southern, and also from Hunan.

    Ting finds a few things wrong with this story:

    1) Yat Chan Um Chu or "A Piece of Dust, the Master of a Buddhist Nunnery" is a very strange and uncertain title with no one really on record as existing. "Um" is a Nunnery or Convent, a place where men would be strictly forbidden. The title sounds more like a title for a Female!

    Also, a respected leader gets the Title "Dai-Si", so the title "Um Chu" sounds more like that of a hermit who practiced the Taoism/Buddhism but did not join the Monestary.

    Ting believes the only possibility is that Pang Nam mixs up two characters for 'Um". One means a "nunnery" and the other means "a thatched hut or small cottage".

    2) Geography- Hunan is to the north of all other Wing Chun history and Mt. Heng Shan is the most famous mountain there. If it was founded there, how come there are no other similear Martial Arts in the region? Wouldn't he have taught more than one person? Who would he have learned from for the background material of the system?

    3) An adult learned from an Unborn- On researching Tan-Sau Ng from other books he is placed in Fatshan in 1723-1735. Yat Chan Um Chan lived from the 1736 to 1820 period, so how did he come to teach an entire art to Tan-sau Ng before he was even born?

    4) Dead teach the UnBorn- An Opera troop leader named Li Wen Mou caused a political revolution in Canton in the Summer of 1854. The Pesants and a revolutioary gang surronded Canton for a Half year. In November 1854, General Yeh Ming-Shen took control of Fatshan again and burned 49 streets and the Ching Government Banned all activitys of Opera troops for 15 years.

    So it was the year 1854 that the Opera troop Members all lost their jobs. This is when Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yee Tai began teaching Martial Art for a living. Dr. Leung Jan began learning from his Si-fu Leung Yee Tai before 1854, and in this period also learned from Wang Wa Bo. In 1869 Wong Wa Bo returned to being an Actor after the ban was lifted.

    Wong Wa Bo then could not be to old to return to acting. Even if they where old, in their 60's, they would not be born before 1800. If Tan-Sau Ng went to Fatshan in 1730(?) and was allready a famous actor, he must be atleast age 30 then, making him almost 90 years old in 1800. This makes it hard to imagine that Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yee Tai learned from him directly. :5geezer:

    5) Explaination of the Name- We know that in the other Wing Chun styles the name is from the founder. Even Weng Chun is named from a Shaolin training hall in that region. Leung Ting was not convinced by Pang Nam as to where the Weng Chun name came from. Why did they not call it "Yat Chan" or "Tan Sau" but instead call it Weng Chun?

    Tan-Sau Ng, how did he get this nickname? In the Dictonary of History and Cultures of Fatshan, it mentions that a famous actor who made satirical and ironic plays about the government, named Cheung Ng, was forced to flee Peking in the years of Yung Ching (1723-1735). When Cheung Ng escaped to Fatshan, he became a begger. He played songs and danced for money on the street.

    The way of begging in China is to hold out your palm, as in a tan-sau. It is a very common term for the Cantonese, to say "he only knows how to stretch out his Tan-sau" meaning he only knows how to ask for money!!

    So it is easy to explain how Tan-Sau Ng, an out-of-work actor, got his nickname!! He was however, regarded in history as a great teacher of Opera arts. The actors in the troop such as Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yee Tai could be considered his disiples but as inheritors of the acting and performing arts, but not any Martial arts.

    The next section in "Roots of WT" covers the article by which Sifu Pang Nam came about this story. Ting visted Pang Nam many times when he was alive and thus got this photocopy from him directly. The author, Mr. Law Joh Wan, is not a martial artist but a writer of Fiction Novels. He created this story becuase Tan-Sau Ng has a Wing Tsun movement in his name. It is pure fiction.....

    The Pang Nam style of Weng Chun is covered on pages 301 to 333. It has a complete photo set of his Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and also his wooden dummy set. It covers many points of his other forms and movements. It is notable to point out the Sifu Pang Nam did 5 styles of Hung Gar before starting in Wing Chun. He has very fancy names for all of his wing chun moves which he mad up himself. Names like "Riding a Dragon and Praying Palm" or "Heaven Prince supporting a Pagoda on his Palm". My favorite Move of this style is the "Venumous Snake Spitting Poisonous Mist".

    A very good list of old Wing Chun sayings is translated into english at the end of this section, from Sifu Nam. Very good stuff!!!

    It is true that many detractors of the Yip Man and Leung Ting styles have gone to Pang Nam as an alternative source. They also enjoy that his story is of men being founders and not females. Much of this is just reverse Marketing BS to try to defame the competions Marketing story (BS :XXmonkey: ). It is all BS in its own way!!! :tongue2:

    Tom, thats not funny.......ok, it is :-)

    Jaric, we use the inner rotation in fighting, forms, and even when standing in line at the grocery store. However, when fighting we are often on one leg and/ or turned 90 degrees so it may not be as noticable. :new_scatt
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 9/08/2005 6:44pm at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2005 6:37pm

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     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I still believe Ng Mui had it right. Come on, a fighting nun!!!! A chick!! And her student who she passed it onto was supposedly HOT!!! THat seems more interesting i think.
  5. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/14/2005 9:59pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is a good legend, that is for sure....the Nun Ng Mui has several other legends about herself and her adventures. Throwing bad guys down from the Plum Pile posts onto upturned knives and teaching a young boy a style to avenge a wrongful death. The boy was taught to step in and drop low as he punched high. She is also tied in to another legendary character, a fighting boy whos mom dipped him in Iron Di Dat Gou every day from when he was born and feed him tonics and herbs to make him strong. His Kung fu was the best but his little body couldn't handle the blows from grown men so his mom made his a small brass breast-plate and hide dagger points in the fabric of his shoes, so when he kicked hard enough they poked out!! :blob5:

    I got a few more origin legends to cover but I have not got time to write them out.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  6. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2005 10:38pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Its interesting in that I often think of the origin story as starting with Yip Man for Hong Kong Wing Chun because the WC there is distinctively Hong Kong in certain ways.

    For example, in Foshan province, in China there are two types of WC that are quite different - (to simplify) one is reknown for long-fist, one is reknown for grappling:

    Uek Kay Shan Wing Chun is the long-fist variation of Wing Chun. ie. they have extended the short-fist out to long-fist.

    Pan Nam Wing Chun from Foshan has a lot of Chin-nah (grappling), they often use more strikes chambered from the side, pinning and grappling, foot sweeps and throws (using a slightly deeper WC stance than Yip Man's WC).

    I tend to prefer a mix of Pan Nam and Uek Kay Shan WC. Both use the chin-nah that was an integral part of WC. The often misunderstood stances, chi-sao and shapes of WC all have new relevance when you start thinking in terms of stand up grappling (with a slightly deeper, balanced stance.) ie. controlling someone.

    Yip Man came from Foshan initially. Yip Man's lineages all seem to have dropped grappling and longer range concepts in favour of refining short-fist striking suited for quick fights in the narrow spaces of Hong Kong.

    Yip Chun discusses how Yip Man much later returned to China to learn more about WC in his book about his father. He concludes (not surprisingly for the sake of Hong Kong WC's reputation and internal harmony) that the impact of Yip Man's later education was limited because he didn't pass this stuff on and kept it for himself. However, he does say he was very excited about the things he learned.

    Therefore my view is 99% of WC in the West today is the HK refinement of a sub-set of WC Yip Man passed on before returning to complete his training in mainland China.

    Dr Tzu, classing people as detractors of Yip Man and Leung Ting, and attacking "alternative sources" of Wing Chun in Foshan that have a different version of the origin story is insular thinking and knee-kerk protectionism. Remember that Wing Chun is a Foshan MA that was taken to Hong Kong by one man only. If you dont look to Foshan you are really looking at only one man's version of events, as he passed it on to students.

    I am now concerned about how biased Leung Ting is in these books you hold as gospel. There is a vested interest in him pushing his WC as the only "real" one, rather than asking people to view WC in its cultural context.

    Also in regard to the different origin story you talked about: having males in the two original roles of teacher and student would address the logical issues that were raised about the implausibilty of a nun, living with men in a celibate temple (unheard of), teaching a young woman an outlawed system, where the punishment for learning was death for you and the entire extended family.
    Last edited by Lefty; 9/15/2005 12:43am at .
  7. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/14/2005 11:53pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Sifu Pang Nam is covered in detail in "Roots of WT" as well. On page 43, his origin story is reviewed. He believes that Weng Chun and Wing Tsun (2 differnt chinese character sets) are one and the same style. :XXcompute

    The Weng Chun style was founded by Yat Chan Um Chu or "A piece of Dust the Master of a Buddhist Nunnery" in the years of Chien Lung (1736 to 1795) and Chia Ching (1796 to 1820). He lived in a temple on Mt. Heng Shan in Hunan Provonce for 13 years. There he taught a student who was nicknamed Tan-Sau-Ng.

    Tan-Sau-Ng was a famous actor of the Opera and later went to the north and worked for the "Jade Flower Society" in Fatshan. At this time he taught Wong Wa Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, Lai Fook Sheun, and others.

    In this story there is obviously no Ng Mui or Yim Wing Tsun. Also, the two founders are Northern Chinese not Southern, and also from Hunan.

    Ting finds a few things wrong with this story:

    ...

    It is true that many detractors of the Yip Man and Leung Ting styles have gone to Pang Nam as an alternative source. They also enjoy that his story is of men being founders and not females. Much of this is just reverse Marketing BS to try to defame the competions Marketing story (BS :XXmonkey: ). It is all BS in its own way!!! :tongue2:
    Good post here but there are some things that worry me. Firstly, it is unlikely that any of this history is sufficiently documented in any way. The history before Wing Chun was 'famous' is probably a collection of folk stories. This reflects its origins... it has a history of being practiced by villagers in the Foshan province.

    When we are looking at the stories surrounding the origin of Wing Chun we must acknowledge that we are examining stories transmitted by oral tradition. As such they are bound to have a large number of logical inconsistencies. Because one story that was transmitted orally for generations has less or more logical errors is a matter of random chance. It can not be used as a way of justifying the selection of one story over another.

    Secondly, because one story 'promotes' men instead of women can hardly be considered a detracting point for that story. Almost all other TCMA origin stories contain predominantly men. Suggesting that the appeal of the Pan Nam story is because it is male-biased doesn't acknowledge that the real truth is that a male-biased story would not sell well to a public all too keen to learn the 'killing art invented by a girl'.
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 9/15/2005 12:04am at .
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2005 2:57am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, how many of you own any Leung Ting books? I do, so I am posting what they say, to share. The Chu, Ritchie and Wu book is readily available so I figure any of you that care have acces to it. "Roots of WT" is a large hardbond book that cost over $85.00 when I purchased it, and it is not easy to find.

    Both sides in this arguement are full of their own propaganda! The Bias of all WC against Ting is obvious, and the reason for it is obvious too. Ting, in responce, spends his time making them look like fools as well. I really don't care too much either way, but only as a research of history. I use the Nun/girl legend myself because it fits the principles of the WT system.

    It is very funny to me that many Leung Ting detractors have latched onto Sifu Pang Nam becuase his story begins with two men. I pointed this out because it allows them to "shame" Leung Ting and any other WC that still enjoys the Nun/little girl legend. That is all. Benny Mengs VT museum also believes it was always men from the start, and has tried to prevent any contribution from Leung Ting to the Museum.

    Even if you except the Nun/little girl, it is men from then on anyway!!! :tongue1:

    So you do not feel slighted, I will post a brief of the Pang Nam style origin story,as relayed in the Chu, Ritchie, and Wu's "Complete Wing Chun" book, pg. 69.

    Notice, they do not bother to point out that Weng Chun is a different chinese charater set then Wing Chun. These accounts are relayed from Sifu Eddie Chong, of Sacramento, California. I visted his school when I first moved here, and meet him myself. He teaches White Eyebrow and Wing Chun. I believe he was a student of Leung Sheung, Yip Mans student/teacher in Hong Kong. This was also Leung Tings first Teacher as well. Sifu Eddie Chong told me this in person, but it is not listed in the WC book....intersting.

    The art of Wing Chun began with the formation of the Tien Dei Hui (Haven and Earth Society) anti-Qing Revolutionarys in the mid 1670's. The style itself was reported to be a blend of Siu Lam (shaolin), Tai Gik (taiji), Ying Yow (eagle claw), Tong Long (mantis), Gum Gang Jeung (buddhist palms), Kum Na (seizing and holding) and others. Between the 1890's and 1900's a twenty second generation Nun from the Siu Lam known as Yat Chum Um Jee (Speck of Dust Founder of Convent) established a convent on Hengshan in Hunan province. There she began teaching a select set of disciples. Among them was Tan Sao Ng. Eventually, possibly due to revolutionary activity, Ng fleed to Foshan and organized the red junks and founded the Hung Fa Wui Goon (Red Flower Union) opera troop.
    Ng taught Wong Wah-bo, Leung Yee-Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, and Lai Fook-Shun.

    Eventually the style practiced by the opera troop became know as Wing Chun Boxing. Wing was from one of the Heaven and Earth society founders, Chan Wing-Wah. "Chun" was formed by combining the characters for three words, Tai, Tien, and Yat. These would mean Great (Ming), Heaven, and Sun (meaning returning to light). This formed the slogan of the revolution, return the Ming to return freedom.

    During the early to mid nineteenth century Yip Man-Sun, a Qing General, was sent to smash Lee Man-Mao, Chan Hoi, and the anti-Qing revolution. This destroyed the opera theaters and outlawed performances until the 1860's. During this time Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai set up a school in Fashan and taught Dr. Leung Jan. During this time Dai Fa Min Kam was engaged by Lok Lan-Gong to teach Lok and his nephew.

    Dr. leung Jan had several students, including his son, Leung Bik, and Chan Wah-Shun. Chan Wah-Shun taught Yip Man, Lai Hip-Chi and several others. Lai Hip-Chi was born in around 1898 and became Chans live in apprentice and second to last student. About 6 months later Chan returned to his native home, and passed away. Chan Yiu-Min, his son, continued to teach his own children, as well as Jiu Chao and Jiu Wan. Lai Hip-Chi continued to learn under one of Chan's senior students, Lui Yiu-Chai. While practicing on a dummy in a pawn shop 20 years later, a nephew of Lok Lan-Gong (student of Dai Fa Min Kam) noticed him and taught him some history and methods, though he was then over 70 years old. Lai Hip-Chi later taught Sifu Pan Nam.

    Pan Nam was born in 1911 and began Hung Ga Kuen at age 13. In 1947 he began Wing Chun under his good friend Jiu Chao. In 1957 Pan Nam attended the Guangdong Provincial Martial Arts Comp and meet Lai Hip-Chi, and became his student. Lai passed away in 1970 at age 72 and Jiu passed in 1972. Sifu Nam taught until he passed away in 1995. Amoung his students were his sons, Pan Siu-cho and Pan Siu-Lam, and students Lee Dak-Sang, Wong Jee-Keung, Lun Fao, Leung Chong-Ting, and his last student Eddie Chong.


    So compairing Leung Tings account with this one we find some key diffrences. One, the story told to Ting, as well as the booklet written by Law Joh Wan, recounting the story of Tan Sau Ng, has the founder to be a Man, not a Nun. Also, The General in Tings story, referenced from a history book, is not Yip Man-Sun but Yeh Ming-Shen. This may be different wording of they same name (but makes Yip Man a bad guys name)

    Ting further referneces history books to identify Tan Sau Ng and place him in history, 100 years before this time.

    This version also has Dai Fa Min Kam as a student of Tan Sau Ng. Other WC branchs claim him as the Southern Shaolin founder and inventor of Weng Chun, which became Wing Tsun/Chun. It even has his student nephew of Lok Lan-Gong come in later as the bearer of "history" (of this origin story). While other sources point to this being the reason Pang Nam spells it Weng Chun, in light of the Law Joh Wan booklet, I can not believe that the Tan Sau Ng story is real, or from this far back.

    In Tings overview of Sifu Nams history, he mentions that Sifu Pang admited to learning more from his second teacher, Lai Hip Chi, and that Chiu Chows version being much closer to the Yip Man style. Pang Nam also learned from Yip Man in the year before he escaped to Hong Kong, so Pang Nam would know the difference!!

    It is also intersting that they choose to name Leung Ting as Leung Chong-Ting so as to confuse readers as to Tings credibility in knowing Pang Nam.(unless this is a different person?)

    Ok, so next I have some White crane related origin storys and Sifu Yeun Kay Shan. :lol:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  9. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2005 5:57am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting. BTW I'm not on anyone's camp in this whole origin thing. The sad truth is that we will never know the truth -- its all a heady mix of folk-lore, myth, half-facts and propaganda. Perhaps its always been like this to some extent.

    IMO its one of the weaknesses of WC as a style that it places so much emphasis on origin stories and lineages. Surely someone who is good at WC is worthy of respect regardless of lineage.

    Anyway I'm digressing.

    I'd be very interested to hear any information you have concerning the possible historical relationship between White Crane and Wing Chun.
  10. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2005 11:50am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    HeHeHe...ofcoarse! Its just storys :XXsmoker:

    I do think it is interesting in regard to the Sui Lam or Hung Ga connection from the red junk, or the possibility that it was opera style and modified to be a fighting art. Chi sau is greate for making theatrical fight scenes!! Just look at Jackie Chan!! (he does Leung Ting WT as well :glasses13 )

    From my own experience having several instructors and going to seminars for 11 years and meeting other clubs, within our one family, I can see how it gets so changed and repackaged, even in one generation!! It is rather complicated on one hand but simple in application on the other. It has alot of hidden geometry which come out in practice. People seperated from a source rapidly turn it into something of their own, usually with influence from a different martial art. Even those of us at a seminar from the same school have heard it in different ways!!! "No, I think he was trying to say to do it like this!!!" :confused4

    This further clouds the history research, or as Tom K said earlier, the DNA. I think it has continually been threaded in and out of Hung Ga and southern styles like Mantis and White Crane. That is why it is more important to use the principle and theory of Wing Chun to define it and not the movements themselves. :glasses1:

    :coffee:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

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