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  1. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 7:24pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy
    I hate to burst anyone's bubble but by the time Crane Boxing and Wing Chun underwent most of their development as systems (i.e. the mid to late 1800s) the favored martial arts "system" of Chinese assassins was a Colt revolver at close range after having bribed the victim's bodyguards to look the other way. This approach did not require much "ninja skills" nor any great skill in Wing Chung/Crane Boxing or anything else. It required having enough political connections to get a pistol and enough money to bribe off the guards.

    Chinese martial artists of the 1800s, just like American cowboys of the 1800s, really were impressed with Sammuel Colt's little invention. As Sun Lu Tang (one of China's most famous martial artists of the late Qing dynasty) put it; "if you want to fight, get a gun".

    take care,
    Brian
    Where they selling them with silencers back then?
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 8:05pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DNA, it is a good way to look at it. Hard to believe we once walked on all fours or once had gills too, no evidence today, but the DNA says so...

    Modern Wing Whatever went through many changes since its creation. Notably on the Red Junk and by Leung Jan, the Bone Setter. It would seem that under Leung Jan, it became a more recreational fighting art, and was refined into the formal training sets we see today.

    Leung Ting once said in a seminar that it seemed from his research that the Knife form and some simple Empty hand Chi Sau to build reflex's for the Knives was what came first. Then the other 5 forms came in over time. The Knives where very short and concealable, very good tools for a clever assasian.

    Siu Nim Tau is very similar to Chi Kong and Chum Kiu seems like a few combos for fighting. In "Roots of WT" some other forms, in this "fighting combos flavor" are shown, from other branches. Biu Tze is a specialized form, with very specific weapons for very specific needs. The Wooden dummy has more combos, plus the kicks and footwork(and multiple opponent stuff). The Long Pole seems to be somewhat out of place in that it is a lot of long moves and Horse stance based stuff. If WT is yin, then the long pole is its yang element.

    All these other forms came in over time, as the teachers added stuff to the beginner program to keep from showing them the knives until they showed they where worthy. By Yip Mans time, few peole get the knife secrets but most of the needed movements where redistributed in the lower forms.

    "Complete Wing Chun" mentions that the red junk opera troop had many, many forms they practiced. Wing Chun came to the Troop from different sources from different perspectives, either the Nun/Yim/ husband route or from the Red Junk Cook, who was a Shaolin Master Monk hiding out. One version even has Both sources meeting up at the Boat!! Since not every person learned every form, it makes sense that the divergent branches learned different forms sometimes.

    So if it was used by assasians on the Red Junk, those secret "ninja" skills where not part of the training handed down in public to figures like Leung Jan. Most of those skills are outside the martial training anyway. Teaching these special skills would put you at greater risk, so they would have been very secret.

    As to Crane style.....um, the Nun, Ng Mui was a White Crane Temple Monk. I think thats pretty much admitting a connection. As to it being a weak and frail animal, well in the Five Animal system, it is the last animal to learn. Its moves are the most agile and require the most skill, but it trumps the other four. (Meaning you have learned the other four first, and can them beat them with themselves plus Crane) The White Crane is also a symbol of the Emperor, and thus a very highly respected symbol.

    Others have pointed out the similarity to Mantis, and one version in "Complete Wing Chun" has Mantis connections.

    Assuming then that Animal styles use the Animal for symbolism, it is not to hard to see that the story of a Nun (old Lady) and a Little Girl are also symbolic. The Movements must have the wisdom of the ages, but not require strength or major agility. The Little girl has no understanding of the world yet, so the art must be automatic. She can not be expected to have studied so many styles to recognize from visual cues what the attacker is doing, so it must be a one size fits all. Also, she may be naive enough to find herself in a bad situation and need to instantly fight her way out (last girl at a college Frat party kinda thing), so it must tap into the fight or flight subconscious, which is faster than the regular mind.

    Last, both a Nun or a little girl would not spend their every moment thinking and training violence. Wing Chun et al. attempts to be non-violent. Many of us on Bullshido or other MA forums spend most of our time think about fighting arts or training in them. These are violent thoughts. :qleft6: A Buddhist Nun or a little Girl would not have these thoughts. So Wing Chun et al. attempts to train in a more Non-violent mentally kinda way, and only returns violence on attackers to cancel it out. :5yinyang:

    :5usaribbo
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:32pm at . Reason: spelling
  3. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 8:19pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Does anyone in this thread read Chinese or have access to Chinese language materials? Just wondering because all the references are to english language stuff.

    take care,
    Brian
  4. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 10:18pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Leung Ting once said in a seminar that it seemed from his research that the Knife form and some simple Empty hand Chi Sau to build reflexs for the Kniives was what came first. Then the other 5 forms came in over time. The Knives where very short and concelable, very good tools for a clever assasian
    Firstly dont believe the hype from people from inside WT/VT mega-corporation. They well sell you stuff that sounds good. I would say that chi-sau has more in common with tai chi pushing hands than anything I have seen done with the butterfly knife. Show me one example of doing a chi-sau exercise with butterfly knives?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Siu Nim Tau is very similear to Chi Kong and Chum Kiu seems like a few combos for fighting. In "Roots of WT" some other forms, in this "fighting combos flavor" are shown, from other branchs. Biu Tze is a specilized form, with very specific weapons for very specific needs. The Wooden dummy has more combos, plus the kicks and footwork(and mulitiple opponent stuff). The Long Pole seems to be somewhat out of place in that it is alot of long moves and Horse stance based stuff. If WT is yin, then the long pole is its yang element.
    WT is not yin... by that I guess you mean internal. It is as external as any form of fighting. Just because the WC mega-McDojos try and sell you Westernized chinese traditional medicine with your soft-serve kungfu doesn't make it so.

    The Wooden dummy is mainly a footwork and form drill.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    All these other forms came in over time, as the teachers added stuff to the beginner proram to keep from showing them the knives until they showed they where worthy. By Yip Mans time, few peole get the knife secrets but most of the needed movements where redistrubited in the lower forms.
    WC butterfly knives, as done by the people I have seen, is not much more than the form. I havenever seen WC buttefly knife sparring or many static drills . That dont mean there aren't any, but just that modern WC doesn't really have a highly developed weapons component. Thats not to say it couldn't be fixed by simply adding more 'alive' weapons training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    As to Crane style.....um, the Nun, Ng Mui was a White Crane Temple Monk. I think thats pretty much admiting a connection. As to it being a weak and frail animal, well in the Five Animal system, it is the last animal to learn. Its moves are the most agile and require the most skill, but it trumps the other four. (Meaning you have learned the other four first, and can them beat them with themselves plus Crane) The White Crane is also a symbol of the Emperor, and thus a very highly respected symbol.
    Do you see the logical flaw here? Just because WC is probably a fusion of styles with White Crane being a big component, doesn't mean that it was invented by a probably fictional monk who was purported to do White Crane. Thats a little like arguing that because you get presents at Christmas, and Santa is said to bring presents, that Santa must exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Last, both a Nun or a little girl would not spend their every moment thinking and training violence. Wing Chun et al. attempts to be non-violent. Many of us on Bullshido or other MA forums spend most of our time think about fighting arts or training in them. These are violent thoughts. :qleft6: A Budhist Nun or a little Girl would not have these thuoghts. So Wing Chun et al. attempts to train in a more Non-violent mentally kinda way, and only returns violence on attackers to cancel it out. :5yinyang:
    :5usaribbo
    WC is a very violent style. E.g. it has eye-strikes and crushing the larynx etc etc. WC doesnot attempt to be non-violent. The only MA I am aware of that has that mentality is Aikido. Do not extrapolate your own club's view on an art that is intended to be used to kill people.

    If you don't practice fighting people in a realistic way you will never be able to defeat anyone.
  5. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 10:34pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's widely accepted that the myth of the origin of WC involving Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is exactly that, a myth. I mean how many female monks where there? None...

    This has been widely discussed in other WC history threads. For example, an article from the VT people: http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/me...threvealed.php

    The myth was invented to protect revolutionaries during the civil war (around 400 years ago) by non-politicising the origin of WC.
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 11:02pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    I don't think that you're really making an analysis that could be reasonably compared with a DNA analysis in terms of its guaranteed accuracy.

    What sources have you used for you analysis of insurgency tactics 200 years ago in China. Do records exist of how insurgents, operated? Would it have been similar to the terrorists of today?
    So, you don't like comparing it to DNA? That's fine. How about "empirical observation?" I'm not asking you to take my word for it, nor did I mean to imply any sort of DNA lab matching: I was referring to the relatively unknown functions of the blueprint - the DNA - from which the style comes forth as expressed in its methods observable by anyone wishing to examine it.

    The assassin folklore and/or the training of military regiments folklore of the style does not, in my opinion "fit" what is shown in the style's methods, tactics, and/or entire training progression. Do you have additional observations beyond a pair of 14+ inch short swords could conceivably be hidden in baggy clothes and that some people aim for the neck which could conceivably point back the other way?

    If you want to have productive research on the origins of the style, it makes some sense to investigate avenues which show some evidence of being fruitful. Beyond stories repeated so often people begin to accept them as fact, I don't see that unfolding for the assassin idea or the military idea. I am curious why you do?
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/23/2005 11:04pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    Where they selling them with silencers back then?
    LOL

    Yes, but they called it a bow and the bullet an arrow. It was a special super secret model only given to the most worthy empty hand archers. :smile:

    That reminds me: "Others walk the bow, I walk the string." -- Ving Tsun Kuen Kuit. Both bow walking and string walking are methods for an archer to intuitively aim an arrow. Coincidence? :smile:
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 8/23/2005 11:10pm at .
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:04am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :new_icecr

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Firstly dont believe the hype from people from inside WT/VT mega-corporation. They well sell you stuff that sounds good.
    What, once you have over 100,000 students suddenly your full of ****? Dr. Leung Ting has visited everyone in WC from all branches left alive, has documented the history in print and film, has published books and articles, and has footnotes in his books even. His stuff makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    I would say that chi-sau has more in common with tai chi pushing hands than anything I have seen done with the butterfly knife. Show me one example of doing a chi-sau exercise with butterfly knives?
    The concept of WT is to move around obstructions. Chi Sau (empty hand) works on this effect. If You can not roll around, you create a block. All the Empty hand transitions to the double knives.

    Example: Bong/Kwan/Fak
    sword(using escrima terms) Interrupted #2, to rolling hammer fist to #2 again. all with swords of coarse

    Tings idea was that the swords where the secret military thing, and that some chi sau drills where created to store muscle reflex.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    WT is not yin... by that I guess you mean internal. It is as external as any form of fighting. Just because the WC mega-McDojos try and sell you Westernized chinese traditional medicine with your soft-serve kungfu doesn't make it so.
    Mine doesn't, but good correction. I was being a little to lose with my words. The Long pole has things like a front stance and using the body to launch an attack with fills in a lot of what is missing in traditional/original WC. That was more of my point. WC et al. is thought of as close in fighting, or "internal" and the long pole has the forms used in long range fighting (with out the pole). It makes a nice DNA finger print for the introduction of material from another style along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    The Wooden dummy is mainly a footwork and form drill.
    Yes, and a tool to practice on to keep your skills up when you have no need of a teacher and no partner to train with.

    Footwork=multiple opponents

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    WC butterfly knives, as done by the people I have seen, is not much more than the form. I havenever seen WC buttefly knife sparring or many static drills . That dont mean there aren't any, but just that modern WC doesn't really have a highly developed weapons component. Thats not to say it couldn't be fixed by simply adding more 'alive' weapons training.
    Very few people have been taught the true knives set. Many WC tried to make up their own using Butter fly sword sets or even the Japanese sai. Not the same thing. They are butterfly KNIVES, not swords. They are very short, you should be able to chain "punch" with them.

    Leung Ting did an article in a Chinese Mag in about 1972 and Yip Man gave him special training on them for it. He showed him many things specifically that should NOT be revealed in the magazine. Few people got this stuff from Yip Man.

    But I think you miss my point. Originally ALL the boxing was to prep for Knives. Only in modern times have the knives been lost and the boxing took over.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Do you see the logical flaw here? Just because WC is probably a fusion of styles with White Crane being a big component, doesn't mean that it was invented by a probably fictional monk who was purported to do White Crane. Thats a little like arguing that because you get presents at Christmas, and Santa is said to bring presents, that Santa must exist.
    Well I just pointed out the legend has a Crane monk in it. and Santa did exist, he was my parents. The Nun existed to, but She may have been a group of people or even a Dude in Drag, we can't know either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    WC is a very violent style. E.g. it has eye-strikes and crushing the larynx etc etc. WC doesnot attempt to be non-violent. The only MA I am aware of that has that mentality is Aikido. Do not extrapolate your own club's view on an art that is intended to be used to kill people.
    Is killing in self defense violent, or does Violence require intent and instigation? Physically I guess any harm is violent to most liberals.

    Violence is a state of mind as well as an action. As a Buddhists (more likely Taoist) tradition, it should seek a clear mind. This is philosophy.

    Being an automatic system, you can avoid having to think violent thoughts when threatened. You can relax and clear the mind and just be, just respond naturally. If they do nothing nothing happens. If they attack their attack is canceled out. This is Non-violent, mentally. If you have to think every answer, not only does it make you slow, but you spend needless time with violent thoughts in your head.

    Example: I am at the ATM and someone comes up behind me. If my mind goes through all the scenarios, i.e. He grabs my shoulder, I clear and arm bar, snap his elbow, if he bear hugs I circle step behind legs, head smash back into face, grab groin and straighten slamming his head into floor, or just turn and spade hand his throat,....I have waisted some lifetime with violent thoughts.

    or I could just relax and be aware and let my training take over if he touches me.

    Turns out its some old lady with a cane anyway....never even needed to have those violent destructive thoughts :qleapfrog

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    If you don't practice fighting people in a realistic way you will never be able to defeat anyone.
    I think the point was that How do you practice Short Knives realistically with contact without cutting each other up? This is where boxing came in. Being practical, the boxing itself should also work, in order to not waist time. That is how it all started.

    What people do today is another mater.

    Sidenote: I read somewhere that in very ancient times there was only wrestling and weapons. There really was no boxing. Boxing came about as a Weapons drill. Hard contact to toughing you up, but not so hard to crack a skull.

    Wing Chun came about in a period where the public was not allowed weapons. Whatever the source, it could have been an attempt to create a specific empty hand fighting art. Most "empty hand" arts are really just disarmed weapons arts. Yes, this contradicts the Butterfly Sword start theory! just putting it out there. :new_blueg
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 12/13/2006 9:39pm at . Reason: spelling

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:07am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    It's widely accepted that the myth of the origin of WC involving Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun is exactly that, a myth. I mean how many female monks where there? None....
    Don't you mean, "how many female monks where there? Nun"

    Nuns, yes, thats right, not just a Catholic thing, there are Nuns all over the world......just look at King of Seals Avatar!!! :bootyshak

    :blob1:
  10. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 1:40am


     Style: FMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bwahaha! the pun on the nun is kinda fun.

    But seriously, I've been told it was unheard of for female monks to live inside the temples with the men. Too much risk of monkey business :).

    Here is a direct quote from the link I provided in the previous post to back this up and generally to argue against the notion that Ng Mui existed outside of a fanciful story:

    "However, there are three important considerations to make when regarding the story of Ng Mui. Firstly, outside of the legend, there is no other evidence that Ng Mui - in her capacity as a kung-fu grandmaster or founder of a kung-fu system actually existed - no records, no historical documents - nothing. Secondly, it would have been forbidden for a nun to live in, let alone train within, a celibate monastic environment like the Siu Lam /Shaolin Temples. Thirdly, and perhaps the most important, after escaping from a life and death situation as a revolutionary, it does not make sense that Ng Mui would teach an advanced level fighting system to a local girl with romantic problems and no connection to the revolution. At that time in Chinese history, the Qing dynasty had devised a special form of punishment for traitors and rebels. After being made to confess his or her crimes, the guilty party was executed. Afterwards, Qing officials would hunt down members of the guilty party's family down to nine generations and execute them as traitors as well. Teaching Yim Wing Chun a martial arts would directly put her life at risk"

    http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/me...threvealed.php
  11. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 4:30am


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    I don't think that you're really making an analysis that could be reasonably compared with a DNA analysis in terms of its guaranteed accuracy.
    You're not going to get an analysis that can be compared with DNA analysis and, honestly, this strikes me as nothing more than a disingenuous attempt on your part to avoid addressing any of the issues in Tom's post.
    Do you disagree with what he said? Do you take issue with any of his points?
    Do you quibble with his understanding of insurgency tactics of times gone by? Do you have the common courtesy to make a decent reply to his detailed post? Can you bring yourself to do any work on this yourself?

    What is your point in starting this thread?
    Do you want to be spoonfed information because you're too lazy to do even basic research? Or do you want to regurgitate the usual myths about _ng _un in that patented verbose but vague style that allows these threads to grow out of control as the _ng _unners make use of the ambiguities in their prose to clumsily sidestep every direct question and challenge to the legitimacy of the information that they're presenting?
    Last edited by pox; 8/24/2005 6:05am at .
  12. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:15am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yen Yong Chun was the woman's name and also the name of the place, Yong Chun town in Fukien province. She is viewed as the founder of modern Wing Chun. Prof. Kang Ge Wu(康戈武) in his encyclopedia of Chinese martial arts confirms that. She was reputed to have learned this from a guy whose name literally is "5 Piece Coin Master" (which is a Daoist religious name). Nobody knows anything about 5 Piece of Coin Master. What is fairly clear is she, Yen Yong Chun, was in the 6th generation of Crane Boxing.

    That information I got from an article in issue 10 of Taiwan Wu Lin magazine. The article was written by Mr. Liu Kang Yi (劉康毅) who is the editor and one of Taiwans most knowledgeable martial arts historians. He also has was I would guess is one of the world's largest collections of historical Chinese martial arts training manuals.

    Now what I would guess the real deal was, was Yong Chun town (which is still around) had its own version of Crane Boxing. They wanted to clearly separate it from all the other local brands (and yes, I am using a marketing term on purpose-chinese martial arts then and now was a product that had brand name recognition.) so they put the town's name on their brand (Yong Chun=Wing Chun) and made the founder a person whose name is the same as the town's.

    If you look at the various sets (routines/katas, whatever you want to call them) of the different versions of Fukien Crane Boxing you see that Wing Chun is both a simplification of Fukien Crane Boxing and a far more efficient, streamlined (and perhaps more street effective) version of Fukien Crane Boxing.

    It is also worth noting that Wing Chun, at least as taught by Yip Man, was clearly an internal style of Chinese martial art which placed an emphasis on whole body power. I should mention as a side note, I saw some outstanding Crane Boxing/Wing Chun (in Taiwan the two are lumped together in most discussions) at the first Taiwan Martial Arts Festival about a year back.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Take care,
    Brian
  13. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:17am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Leung Ting once said in a seminar that it seemed from his research that the Knife form and some simple Empty hand Chi Sau to build reflexs for the Kniives was what came first. Then the other 5 forms came in over time......

    .............

    All these other forms came in over time, as the teachers added stuff to the beginner proram to keep from showing them the knives until they showed they where worthy
    Wait a minute, are you really trying to tell us that all the super-effective eye-gouging and larynx-crushing techniques that you train in the unarmed portion of _ng _un are really just busy work, designed to keep students occupied until their teacher decides that they're ready to learn the real _ng _un?
  14. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 6:41am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    You're not going to get an analysis that can be compared with DNA analysis and, honestly, this strikes me as nothing more than a disingenuous attempt on your part to avoid addressing any of the issues in Tom's post.
    Do you disagree with what he said? Do you take issue with any of his points?
    Do you quibble with his understanding of insurgency tactics of times gone by? Do you have the common courtesy to make a decent reply to his detailed post? Can you bring yourself to do any work on this yourself?

    What is your point in starting this thread?
    Do you want to be spoonfed information because you're too lazy to do even basic research? Or do you want to regurgitate the usual myths about _ng _un in that patented verbose but vague style that allows these threads to grow out of control as the _ng _unners make use of the ambiguities in their prose to clumsily sidestep every direct question and challenge to the legitimacy of the information that they're presenting?
    My point in starting the thread was to make myself aware of the variety of opinions and information out there about the origins of Wing Chun. It seems appropriate for a martial arts history forum.

    Tom made a number of points which may or may not be accurate, I simply asked what sources he had for his theories about the methodologies of insurgents at that time. Which is a reasonable question.

    I don't have any strong feelings about what the reality is, just an open mind which leads me to ask questions.
  15. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/24/2005 7:03am


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    My point in starting the thread was to make myself aware of the variety of opinions and information out there about the origins of Wing Chun. It seems appropriate for a martial arts history forum.

    Tom made a number of points which may or may not be accurate, I simply asked what sources he had for his theories about the methodologies of insurgents at that time. Which is a reasonable question.

    I don't have any strong feelings about what the reality is, just an open mind which leads me to ask questions.
    The main point of Tom's post was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    it is a stretch of the imagination of the faith in such folklore to believe the style's DNA has a military pedigree when it has all the markings of a relatively small regional civilian art of a non-elite class of people.
    He went to the trouble of outlining his reasons for arriving at this particular conclusion.
    It seems to me that you don't have an open mind at all, and have demonstrated this by picking on one, quite irrelevant, section in Tom's post to disregard everything that he said. Do you have any opinion on anything else he said? Are you trying to imply that the application of common-sense and logic aren't enough to debunk an unverifiable, unsubstantiated, and quite preposterous claim that you happened to chance upon?
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