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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2005 12:23pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    This further clouds the history research, or as Tom K said earlier, the DNA. I

    Don't drag me back into this. I'm not going to help you; stand on your own two feet pointed inward! You doing a fine job contributing to getting another __ng __un thread moved to the "Bullshido Classics and Mega Threads" without my help.

    Please continue.
  2. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2005 12:51am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey thanks for the post about "Complete Wing chun" Doc Tzu!

    After doing some research I was shocked to find out the book has no referencing or footnotes whatsover! Also I know the lineage mentioned is incomplete, therefore I suspect it is incorrect in other ways too.

    I found what Eddie Chong told you interesting (he only learned from Leung Sheung) given that he promotes himself as the US Pan Nam Wing Chun representative and it is listed in the book. Maybe the authors just included him only because they heard he taught it. I would not be surprised if he never trained with Pan Nam, but might have learned a few moves of it, and uses that for advertising purposes (niche marketing).


    I was looking at reviews of that book you quote on Amazon:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...83129?v=glance

    Summary of pros and cons listed so far "Complete Wing Chun":

    PROS
    • It is an attempt to understand the origin of Wing Chun and provide a listing of the different kinds of Wing Chun.
    CONS
    • No referencing or footnotes - yet claims to be a credible research book.
    • Based primarily on the training experiences of the authors.
    • Doesn't really attempt to describe what the differences between WC styles are.
    • Filled with subjective stories and doesnt try to establish any hard facts.
    • Filled with biases and mis-representations to promote the authors' lineage as the best and the only one with the true information and complete system.
    • Repeatedly muddles up lineages and leaves students and teachers off lineages and should therefore be called "incomplete wing chun".
    • Is perpetuating ignorance of Wing Chun Kung Fu by attempting to pass off as a legitimate academic work anything other than an unreferenced fiction to promote the author's interests.
    Roflmao!!!
    I agree with them all so far...
    Last edited by Lefty; 9/16/2005 2:01am at .
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2005 1:07am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what time is it in Australia?....:-)

    I didn't mean to imply he didn't mention P. Nam in person, I can't remeber for sure, I think he may have. I was more refering to that his begining with Leung Sheung was not mentioned at all in the Complete Wing Chun book. Its like he wanted to distance himself from the connection to Yip Man, or maybe the Authors did.

    As i said, everyone is Biased, even me.... :5slick:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  4. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2005 1:30am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No problem....
    ...

    There is a broken link to some pictures of Eddie Chong training with Pan Nam here:
    http://www.wingchun.com/masters.html

    So the mystery continues...

    Heh, it's late afternoon.
    Last edited by Lefty; 9/16/2005 1:34am at .
  5. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2005 1:44am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The sad truth is that pictures of training with someone is not really enough. I've been to seminars where people line up to have photos of themselves taken with a grandmaster. Every time I see that I groan... I can imagine in the future, when they think no one knows or remembers them, they put that photo on a website or book to show the world that they really did train with that grandmaster for 20 years.
  6. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2005 1:49am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    ... I think it has continually been threaded in and out of Hung Ga and southern styles like Mantis and White Crane. That is why it is more important to use the principle and theory of Wing Chun to define it and not the movements themselves. :glasses1:

    :coffee:
    The thing is different lineages have different principles and theories. E.g. I have heard some say that this is a principle of Wing Chun:
    "Try not to strike the same place twice in succession."

    However many clubs either haven't heard of this or dont believe in it.

    It would be good to see if an analysis of White Crane vs Wing Chun to see if the origins of Wing Chun could be 'reconstructed'. I've seen some arm positions in White Crane that are similar...
  7. brianlkennedy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2005 5:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It is kind of an irony. Bullshido is a source of bullshido. Nobody in this thread can read a word of chinese yet you all go on for page after page of threads rehashing the stock nonsense from the english language garbage that has been published on wing chun.

    These history threads are not "serious" right? It is just some guys b.s.ing like at a bar?

    That is cool. Sorry to interupt.

    take care,
    Brian
  8. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2005 6:46am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    At least one person posted information from Cantonese sources previously.... and they more or less said that it is almost incontrovertible that WC is a form of White Crane boxing.

    You are right about most english-language sources IMO. I think they are more promotional than anything.
  9. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2005 8:19am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by brianlkennedy
    It is kind of an irony. Bullshido is a source of bullshido. Nobody in this thread can read a word of chinese yet you all go on for page after page of threads rehashing the stock nonsense from the english language garbage that has been published on wing chun.

    These history threads are not "serious" right? It is just some guys b.s.ing like at a bar?

    That is cool. Sorry to interupt.

    take care,
    Brian
    Heh, thank god someone said it! :)
  10. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2005 1:34pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So we gotta learn Cantonese or Mandarin to talk about history legends? I think it has been said several times that since the Chinese didn't have a written history but an oral one, we have to except that it is not as accurate a history as others. :XXjester:

    The 4 authors I have used, referencing 2 books, all speack Chinese, and have written english publications for us "backwards" westerners. I agree with your characterising it as Bar Gossip, but I have rarely seen people site reference material in bars, unless they where in college towns :evil5:

    But it is just for fun. :tongue3:

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  11. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/19/2005 6:39pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem is that no accounts that are available to English-speakers that are written by authors without a possible conflict of interest. By this I mean that its not possible to say that they are objective in the sense that their main purpose to present a balanced argument based on 'archaeological' evidence. It is likely that one of the stated aims of these works is to promote the authors as the fount of knowledge on Wing Chun, and the income that that entails.

    While most of the practitioners would have learnt their art by oral transmission, it is likely that there are a good deal of written works in chinese that are simply inaccessible by people who cant read Chinese.

    brianlkennedy you posted a large lsit of works that were in Cantonese before. What are your views on this based on them.
    Do they provide any support for the Ng Mui basis of the art?
    Is it an art that stemmed from women?
    Is it White Crane boxing and a fusion of other styles?
    Is a knowledge of White Crane required to understand what Wing Chun might have once been?
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 9/19/2005 6:41pm at .
  12. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2005 5:57pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For my next installment, I will review the long awaited White Crane Wing Chun origin Story. This account is fom Leung Ting's "Roots of WT", pg. 213. Notice that Weng Chun is a precinct and not the name of Yim Wing Chun.

    Weng Chun Bak-Hok style, or White Crane Style of Weng Chun Precienct is said to be founded by a girl named Fong Chat Neung, in the Fu-ning state of Fukien Province in the years of K'ang His (1662-1722). Fong Chat Neung was the only daughter of a Shaolin Practioner called Fong Cheung Kwong, or Fong Wai Sek, or Fong Cheng. At 16, having been jilted by her fiancee, who disappeared, she went to live in the Bak Lin Monastery (note: maybe Sha Lin) and lived in the Bik Shui Lin nunnery, a place specially set up for women to practice buddhism (literally the Jade colored Water lily Nunnery or Jade colored White lotus Nunnery).

    One day as Fong wove cloth, a big crane came down and landed where she had just hung wet cloth to dry. She tried to get it to fly away with a shuttle and with a bamboo, but each time it either evaded her or moved a very tiny angle change with its wings to nullify her efforts.

    Knowing Fukien Shaolin from her father, these movements intersted her, and she learned from them. The crane came for several days, and every day she attempted to hit it with the Bamboo and studied its responce. From this she founded White Crane Kung Fu. It consisted only of individual fighing moves, perhaps not even any sets or forms. It was noted for light footwork and hand work, narrow stances, softer arm skills, and close-range tactics.

    Ngan Hei Dan was a Kung Fu Master Known for his pole fighting skills who liked to travel with his student, Tsang Saay. On a trip to tour Fu-ing a sudden rain storm forced them to request shelter in the monastery. Fong began conversing with them about techniques and theorys of Kung Fu, and soon Ngan felt this girl needed to be shown the "real Kung Fu". He suggested that they have a go at it.

    In no time Ngan was beaten and fell to the floor. He asked that his student Tsang Saay could become Fong Chat Neungs disciple. Feeling bad for embarasing him, and seeing the sincerity of the request, she accepted his student as her own. Ofcoarse, they fell in love and got married.

    They practiced for many years and renamed the monestary to Gow Lin, which ment, "the Monestary for teaching and practicing". They also opened a school in the west gate of Weng Chun, named "Tsangs Martial Arts school", which is how it started in Weng Chun precienct. They taught 28 people: Ng, Wong, Lam, Choi, Lok, Hui, and others, who were called "the 28 Heroes". They had a challange stage in the back to fight with other styles and enrich their own skills. (note: I wonder if Leung Ting inserted Ng in this list himself, or if it truely a name from history)

    It is written in old texts that there were "only some individual movements, techniques, and steps in the early stage of the Weng Chun White Crane Style". There might have been some short bare hand sets, pole, double knives, and trident techniques also.

    Other than the 28, there were also the Five Tigers of the early period. Cheng Lai was one of these and fought many challanges fights to make White Crane Famous. His student Lam Chuen learned the the whole of the system. In 1683, Taiwan was attacked and made part of Ching China, and it became part of Fukien Province. A Weng Chun teacher called "Bak Kai" then came to the mainland to teach the "inch force" techniques to the people of Weeng Chun precinct. This shows it was in Taiwan before the 1683 unification. Bak Kai's five best students are know as the "Five Tigers of the later period".

    In 1853, a revolutionary named Lam Chun was a White Crane Weng Chun fighter, who fought the Ching Government and lost. This caused the White Crane style to be banned by the govrnment, but it was to widespread to be stopped so easily. Many people used this style to obtain ranks in the government or as Military officers. P'an Cheng Tu'an, a scholar of the Imperial court and his student P'an Shih Feng reformed White Crane Weng Chun into long sets with beautiul names. (A list of sets is given)

    The White Crane of today then is no longer the simple set that it was when Fong Chat Neung founded it. She is said to have combined the crane movements with the "Siu-Lam Hup-Bai Lo-Hon Sau" or "Hand Techniques of the 18 Arhans in the Siu-Lam (shaolin) Monastery". She created the "Ladys Steps" or "Ku Neung Bo". The Style later branched into 4 main versions: Flying, Screaming, Eating, and Halting Crane. There are also many sub branchs.....Today it is practiced in Fukien, Taiwan, and the South Seas like Malayasia and Singapore.

    Leung Ting's collected information

    Years ago in Taiwan, a Weng Chun White Crane person, very old at the time, told Leung Ting that WT and White Crane were two styles from the same person, Fong Chat Neung. He claimed that Fong changed her name to Ng Mui when she was older and became a nun again.

    During a Tournament in Singapore in 1968, a White Crane fighter from Yuk Ming Pai style told a Wing Chun man that their founder Choi Yuk Ming and Yim Wing Tsun were sisters. Ting could not find any written references to verify this story. It would imply that either Ng Mui created Crane, or more likely, that the Crane founder taught Yim Wing Tsun. (Note: it goes to show the idea of them beginning as one and the same style is widespread)

    He writes that from his many references it does seem that Ng Mui was a White Crane Fighter of the Weng Chun Precient of Fukien. It is not possible that Ng and Fong be the same person due to the different time periods they lived in. It is more likely that Ng Mui was a student in the early period, when White Crane was simple and with few sets, which is why Wing Chun et al. has few sets also.

    :usa2:
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 10/06/2005 7:39pm at .

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  13. wgungfu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 11:31pm


     Style: Wing Chun Kuen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello Lefty, just saw this thread and thought I'd try and clarify a few things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Hey thanks for the post about "Complete Wing chun" Doc Tzu!

    After doing some research I was shocked to find out the book has no referencing or footnotes whatsover!
    Which parts required footnotes? The chapters were written directly by the practitioners of those arts themselves.

    Also I know the lineage mentioned is incomplete, therefore I suspect it is incorrect in other ways too.
    Incomplete as far as listing every student, etc.? It was not meant to, it would take a book in itself to list that. ;)


    I found what Eddie Chong told you interesting (he only learned from Leung Sheung) given that he promotes himself as the US Pan Nam Wing Chun representative and it is listed in the book. Maybe the authors just included him only because they heard he taught it.
    Interesting as well because as far as I know, Eddie provided the chapter. Eddie is an aquaintence of Robert Chu's as well. As for Eddie's background, he was a student of Ken Cheung's (who was a student of Leung Sheung) and then bai si'd Pan Nam.




    [list][*]It is an attempt to understand the origin of Wing Chun and provide a listing of the different kinds of Wing Chun.
    Actually, it was an attempt to bring the content of wingchunkuen.com to the general public, also allowing the people of these specific branches to expose their art to the general public (though many of the branches were featured in articles written by Mok Poi On back in 70's Jonh Kong martial arts magazines).

    [*]No referencing or footnotes - yet claims to be a credible research book.
    You don't have referencing or footnotes when the subjects themselves are writing their chapters.

    [*]Based primarily on the training experiences of the authors.
    Absolutely not.

    [*]Doesn't really attempt to describe what the differences between WC styles are.
    It was not meant to be an instructional book. The publishing company chose the name of the book, the original title was in the line of "Historical Traditions of Wing Chun Kuen". I.e. the book was meant to expose the reader to these various branches, their their general content, and written and/or oral histories.

    [*]Filled with subjective stories and doesnt try to establish any hard facts.
    Again, all stories were provided by the branches themselves. There was a concious effort made not to provide editorial content (which the last chapter was added for), to allow the reader to compare and contrast stories and make up their own minds (which I believe is mentioned at the end as well).

    [*]Filled with biases and mis-representations to promote the authors' lineage as the best and the only one with the true information and complete system.
    Where and how?

    [*]Repeatedly muddles up lineages and leaves students and teachers off lineages and should therefore be called "incomplete wing chun".

    All linneages were provided by reps of those banches. For Yip Man it would have been beyond the scope of the book to start listing and providing pictures of everyone, which is why just a few sifu were shown for examples.

    [*]Is perpetuating ignorance of Wing Chun Kung Fu by attempting to pass off as a legitimate academic work anything other than an unreferenced fiction to promote the author's interests.
    That was written by a rather missinformed individual who was buying in to the rumor that Rene and Robert were trying to "rewrite" history in an effort to "gain control of the wing chun world". Often spread by people who were not very familiar with some of these branches and were assuming they were being "created" to take the Yip Man family off its pedestal.

    Roflmao!!!
    I agree with them all so far...
    I'm sorry to hear that.
    Last edited by wgungfu; 10/31/2005 11:31am at .
  14. wgungfu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 11:41pm


     Style: Wing Chun Kuen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    So you do not feel slighted, I will post a brief of the Pang Nam style origin story,as relayed in the Chu, Ritchie, and Wu's "Complete Wing Chun" book, pg. 69.

    Notice, they do not bother to point out that Weng Chun is a different chinese charater set then Wing Chun.
    There was a conscious effort not to editorialize the chapters provided by these people (such as Eddie), and the distinction between Wing and Weng (including presentation and explination of the roots of the characters) is presented elsewhere in the book as well as on Rene's web site.

    These accounts are relayed from Sifu Eddie Chong, of Sacramento, California. I visted his school when I first moved here, and meet him myself. He teaches White Eyebrow and Wing Chun.
    Yes, he teaches two different branches of wing chun.

    I believe he was a student of Leung Sheung, Yip Mans student/teacher in Hong Kong.
    No, he was a student of Ken Cheung's who in turn was a student of Leung Sheung.

    This was also Leung Tings first Teacher as well. Sifu Eddie Chong told me this in person, but it is not listed in the WC book....intersting.
    Why would that be listed in a section on Pan Nam?
  15. wgungfu is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2005 11:45pm


     Style: Wing Chun Kuen

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    For my next installment, I will review the long awaited White Crane Wing Chun origin Story. This account is fom Leung Ting's "Roots of WT", pg. 213. Notice that Weng Chun is a precinct and not the name of Yim Wing Chun.

    Weng Chun is both a province, village, and a hall - which often adds to the confusion.
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