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  1. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 3:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    It may be more useful for the purposes of this thread to look at what the different lineages have in common and how and why they differ.
    My experience has been this.

    WC guys have often a very rigid SNT. Giving yourself a head ache, we used to say.

    They do not inner rotate the first kwan sau in SNT

    They have only one big section for chi sau, no chi jerk, no lat sau sparring, and no posture pull step.

    The excepted Wing Chun theorys are not evident in their application. Centerline and forward pressure turn into side stepping and blocking to side.

    They teach form after form, but do not have chi sau or application sections for the movements in the forms

    No thrust kick or any footwork that is unique.

    Also, the schools are isolated, and do not get regular seminars from someone higher up to maintain quality of programs and of the local head instructor.

    one example: A guy came into my school once and claimed he was taught 5 forms and since I knew only 2, I should give up my school and be honord to have him as a teacher. He did SNT like Hulk Hogan, flexing every muscle and turning red in the face. We did some poon sau and it wasn't anything more than I knew, except a few fancy attempts at darting fingers and hacking elbows. He was very frusterated.

    Later, I saw him at a public fair in the park. He was very upset about some politic BS with Si-fu Emin or something, and that his Dad was the real deal taught from Yip Mans top student...bla bla whatever. I told him if he really was as good a TEACHER as he thought, he should have come back for a few more classes and proved he could teach, and maybe I would have given him my school. I could care less about his Dad, but if he had something to teach i would have been interested.

    I could tell he didn't like me talking about his dad, and I had had a few beers. I kept pushing it further. "How do I know your dad, maybe he lied to you, maybe he learned it all from Kung Fu magazines" and stuff like that. He got madder and madder, and ask me if I wanted to fight. Not a challange but kinda if you continue we will have to fight BS.

    Point: As he got mad, he got rigid, the closer it came to a fight, the more rigid he got. I actually just moved forward and put my arm around his shoulders and said, "If I wanted to fight you it would allready be over". He totally locked up solid, because of the rigid SNT he did. I got more and more relaxed. When I moved it was slow, but just enough to make him go rigid and he knew he would have been beat. I think the Natives called it Counting Coup. :5squeeze:

    So I agree the lineage only surves to show what you may possibly know and where you come from, but proves nothing.

    The proof is in the putting, a pragmatist once said....
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 8/27/2005 3:24pm at .
  2. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 3:44pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    My experience has been this.

    WC guys have often a very rigid SNT. Giving yourself a head ache, we used to say.

    They do not inner rotate the first kwan sau in SNT

    They have only one big section for chi sau, no chi jerk, no lat sau sparring, and no posture pull step.

    The excepted Wing Chun theorys are not evident in their application. Centerline and forward pressure turn into side stepping and blocking to side.

    They teach form after form, but do not have chi sau or application sections for the movements in the forms

    No thrust kick or any footwork that is unique.

    Also, the schools are isolated, and do not get regular seminars from someone higher up to maintain quality of programs and of the local head instructor.

    one example: A guy came into my school once and claimed he was taught 5 forms and since I knew only 2, I should give up my school and be honord to have him as a teacher. He did SNT like Hulk Hogan, flexing every muscle and turning red in the face. We did some poon sau and it wasn't anything more than I knew, except a few fancy attempts at darting fingers and hacking elbows. He was very frusterated.

    Later, I saw him at a public fair in the park. He was very upset about some politic BS with Si-fu Emin or something, and that his Dad was the real deal taught from Yip Mans top student...bla bla whatever. I told him if he really was as good a TEACHER as he thought, he should have come back for a few more classes and proved he could teach, and maybe I would have given him my school. I could care less about his Dad, but if he had something to teach i would have been interested.

    I could tell he didn't like me talking about his dad, and I had had a few beers. I kept pushing it further. "How do I know your dad, maybe he lied to you, maybe he learned it all from Kung Fu magazines" and stuff like that. He got madder and madder, and ask me if I wanted to fight. Not a challange but kinda if you continue we will have to fight BS.

    Point: As he got mad, he got rigid, the closer it came to a fight, the more rigid he got. I actually just moved forward and put my arm around his shoulders and said, "If I wanted to fight you it would allready be over". He totally locked up solid, because of the rigid SNT he did. I got more and more relaxed. When I moved it was slow, but just enough to make him go rigid and he knew he would have been beat. I think the Natives called it Counting Coup. :5squeeze:

    So I agree the lineage only surves to show what you may possibly know and where you come from, but proves nothing.

    The proof is in the putting, a pragmatist once said....
    The way I'm being trained now is with a LOT of emphasis on being able to switch on at the appropriate point and just as quickly switch off the energy. If he took that approach in training he would have been told about it within five minutes of starting the class. I thought this principal was central to all wing chun?

    Do you think it was someone who just didn't "get it" or do you think that's how he was taught?
  3. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 3:46pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    That was the point, that Cheung still hasn't figured out his "secrets" where nothing more than a trick. He still does things like start sideways, stab with his tan sau fingers(instead of reverse palm strike) and uses Bong sau as a block. No one else in any Wing Chun line does this stuff.
    Are you intentionally being stupid or is this reflective of your true thinking? Anyone who engages in a lot of fights is NOT going to hold onto things that don't work for them unless they just like pain ... a lot.

    and I think the point of the letter was that he was tricked to be good outside but be beat by other Wing Chun, with his open cenerline, rigid forms, and reliance on Di Mak.
    Rubbish. That's just more of the "Secret Squirrel" crap. The defects you note will get a guy's ass kicked in any real fight.

    If you're on the East Coast then by all means ... I'm in Maryland and get into NYC from time to time for formal events, e.g., Chinese New Year. Let's hook up touch hands. I'll shut you down w/out much effort and then you will be left wondering
    ... hmmm ... was I a bully that got taught the wrong stuff?

    HeHeHe.....I did have heat stroke a couple weeks ago, water is just as important as a hat.
    Doubt it. John
  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 4:13pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well John, since I have less than a quarter the time in, and have never "Cleaned up the Shining path in S. America" I have no doubt you could clean my clock quite easily.......and Cheung did get beat quite easily when someone put him to the test, but lets just stay away from that 25 year old story....... :violent5:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    The way I'm being trained now is with a LOT of emphasis on being able to switch on at the appropriate point and just as quickly switch off the energy. If he took that approach in training he would have been told about it within five minutes of starting the class. I thought this principal was central to all wing chun?

    Do you think it was someone who just didn't "get it" or do you think that's how he was taught?
    I dunno, I have seen weight lifters suffer the same problem. Adreniline pumps up the most used muscles, and they just go locked up.

    This guy was really not that bad, and I think he was just caught up in the "poor me, no one respects me" thing and thought the world owed him something. But Rigid is, what rigid does.

    The only Rigid thing we do in WT is some momentary rigid pauses very early in poon sau, just to check that we can channel the energy down into stance and to check forward presure.

    Bil Gee, I think you are saying you do rigid then relax in the forms? That is different than what I am talking about. This guy did it all rigid all the way through, like some old Charles Atlas workout from the back page of the comic books. WT does do some explosive locking out of the limbs then relax, for "jing" in striking, but I do not think of that as rigid. I think of rigid is both sides of a muscle group working against eachother to hold in place.

    There is the resitance thing in Saim Pai Fut, third section of SNT, but that is in motion.

    I think the rigid stuff is a mis-interp of Chi Kung work, for health. But this guy was taught that way I am sure. :sad:
  5. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 5:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Well John, since I have less than a quarter the time in, and have never "Cleaned up the Shining path in S. America" I have no doubt you could clean my clock quite easily.......and Cheung did get beat quite easily when someone put him to the test, but lets just stay away from that 25 year old story.......
    Yet more rubbish ... by you. I NEVER stated I was going to "clean your clock" ... I specifically stated "touch hands" and that's as non-threatening as it ever gets. As far as I know not a single person has ever been injured in any way while touching hands.

    I used a M16-A1 in Peru ... I don't own one and I wouldn't walk the streets with it if I did so you can just jettison that reference.

    Idunno, I have seen weight lifters suffer the same problem. Adreniline pumps up the most used muscles, and they just go locked up.
    Good grief ... take a human physiology course or two will you? They "lock up" because they have breached their lactic acid clearance rate threshold. John
  6. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 5:55pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Yet more rubbish ... by you. I NEVER stated I was going to "clean your clock" ... I specifically stated "touch hands" and that's as non-threatening as it ever gets. As far as I know not a single person has ever been injured in any way while touching hands.

    I used a M16-A1 in Peru ... I don't own one and I wouldn't walk the streets with it if I did so you can just jettison that reference.



    Good grief ... take a human physiology course or two will you? They "lock up" because they have breached their lactic acid clearance rate threshold. John
    I wasn't threatened, I knew what you meant.....and it sounds fun.

    Peru was more about combat experience, and its effect on staying calm in situations after. A combat verteran will have an easier time attending a throwdown and faceing a stranger then a regular civilian, I would think.

    I was not refering to latic acid threshold, I was refering to the numerous video fotage of buff tuffs in real fights. Under the stress, they just punch by twisting back and forth at the waist, their upper body locked up in a "bench press" shape. I very much doubt they punch a heavy bag like this when calm. I have seen it happen to people I know too.

    :qbluepira
  7. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:07pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gentlemen, as a staff member I'd like to remind everyone that this is our one actively moderated section, and I would ask that people not make certain personal comments, or comments totally unrelated to Wing Chun's history. This would include whether someone has certain personality traits because they come from a certain state, or whether certain people from here want to get together to test their technique. It is appropriate to say "that lineage story is garbage," but not "you believe that crap because of X, Y, or Z"

    Carry on.
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:21pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very well....

    The idea of doing the SNT form in a relaxed way is two fold.

    It is done the most often, so it will impart a relaxed nature to your muscles. This in turn helps when you have a surge of Adreniline. This fuel works your muscle memory, and guess what, if they remember being rigid.....

    Second, the SNT is very much like Chi Gung forms except it is all centerline focused. I have not seen any extremely contracted Chi Gung sets for beginners. I have seen fully extending limbs and also compressing muscles and such, but not the red faced blood vessel popping stuff as from the fully rigid people.

    Rigidity doesn't seem to fit with chi sau. This in turn makes me wonder where and how it got introduced into WC or VT programs. The idea of "Springing forward when freed" requires one set of muscles to turn off so the other can take over to move the limb forward. Bil Gee, is this the effect you are talking about?

    Forward pressure is created not by holding two muscle groups against each other, then turning one off. That requires to much thought and signeling from the nervous system. Forward pressure is one muscle group pushing the limb forward, and varying the amount of pressure it exerts on contact. It just automatically goes forward without opposition.

    This is a major differense in some WC vs WT.
  9. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 8:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Guys, I am writing up a review of "Roots of Wing Tsun", Leung Ting and "Complete Wing Chun", by Chu, Ritchie and Wu, for readers to compare. Since these cover WT and WC mostly, is there a good VT reference book out there the Ving Tsun people could recomend.
  10. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 10:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I wasn't threatened, I knew what you meant.....and it sounds fun.
    Cool ... BambooTempleUSA@aol.com Send me an Email sometime and we'll hook up. You might the SPM Set Fik Sau to your liking. I have another Chinese acquaintance in NYC, WC guy as well, and I've been looking for an opportunity to teach him the Set.

    Peru was more about combat experience, and its effect on staying calm in situations after. A combat verteran will have an easier time attending a throwdown and faceing a stranger then a regular civilian, I would think.
    I understand your perspective but let me clue you in on a little secret. There is NOTHING calm about modern warfare. Most guys lose all bladder and bowel control the first time rounds start cracking by the head ... for me ... it was the first two times. Thank God for swamps.

    I don't put a lot of stock in modern warfare experience transferring to a Throwdown or similar setting. The mind set, emotional ramp up, everything is different. In one setting the very real possibility exists of coming home in a body bag. Contrary to Hollywood ... the other side has some high speed low drag Soldiers ... the "bad guys" don't always miss when they shoot and a lot of times the wrong people get killed.

    What's the worse that can happen in a Throwdown? Spit some teeth ... that's what Dental Plans are for ... ribs broken ... it's called Health Care Insurance ... get embarrassed ... do the best you can and there is no read to hang your head over it. It's a learning experience and should have at least some element of "fun" involved.

    I was not refering to latic acid threshold, I was refering to the numerous video fotage of buff tuffs in real fights. Under the stress, they just punch by twisting back and forth at the waist, their upper body locked up in a "bench press" shape. I very much doubt they punch a heavy bag like this when calm. I have seen it happen to people I know too.
    Okay, got it. Yeah, makes sense ... their body naturally gravitates towards the configuration with which it is most familiar in order to produce force in the direction required ... bench press. John
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