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  1. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 1:49am


     Style: Taco Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Hey Guys, I am writing up a review of "Roots of Wing Tsun", Leung Ting and "Complete Wing Chun", by Chu, Ritchie and Wu, for readers to compare. Since these cover WT and WC mostly, is there a good VT reference book out there the Ving Tsun people could recomend.
    I'm not sure why you are singling out the different spellings as representing major lineages. They don't map out that way.

    "Complete Wing Chun" was mostly written as a response to the 3 editors sending out requests for lineage descriptions to various people. It has good basic info, but could not be written today because most lineage holders wouldn't respond again.

    Leung Ting never did much lineage research. Keith K who is a millionaire funded the takeover of Europe for Ting.

    If you want a "Ving Tsun" perspective, try the Ving Tsun Museum at
    www.vtmuseum.org. They have done a fair bit of lineage research.
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 2:07am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TacoFu
    Leung Ting never did much lineage research. Keith K who is a millionaire funded the takeover of Europe for Ting.
    Well, to me, 15 years of going to China and around Asia interviewing the surviving Wing Chun Masters, taking photos and movies of their forms, and Researching the Historical record for evidence of the so named people (Ng Mui and Yim Wing Tsun), then publishing a 400+ page book could be considered "much".

    Intersting, you think he bought off those 100,000 plus students in Europe with his Millions? Not a critical thinker in the whole bunch I imagine......Just out of Curiosity, was he rich before WT, or did he get rich off WT?

    I know the VT museum, they have their own bias as well, I would use them, but webpages can be changed or disappear, books are physical and thus make better references over time. The Complete Wing Chun Book only briefly mentions Leung Ting, while he covers many of the same topics as they do in his book.
  3. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 2:18am


     Style: Taco Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Yes I've been taught this too. In fact I've sparred people who use WC 'constant forward force' and its very easy to counter. If the idea is to use WC shapes to open a hole in the opponents guard (i.e. arms) for a strike, or to 'bridge the gap' of an opponent who is throwing powerful strikes, then blocking as softly as possible is important. However, knowing how to apply jing when contact is made is important too. Using 'forward force' all the time is a bad idea -- it tends to come when people become too used to the drill they've been practicing and aren't doing any drills with 'aliveness'.
    I disagree with the statement regarding forward force. If you have proper structure forward force is a byproduct, not due to rigidity and "muscling" technique. One of the most primary principles of WC/WT/VT is to "go to center and dominate". If there is no bridge or a weak bridge you cross it, burn it to the ground, and pillage the island on the other side.

    Maybe you've sparred rigid "bull elk" syndrome people and their rigidity has given you a lever and allowed you to open a hole. But if you give up center to someone fluid with structure you will be on the run continually.

    Don't give up center, unless you are changing space to redefine center. But then again, you wouldn't be giving up center.
    Last edited by TacoFu; 8/30/2005 2:43am at .
  4. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 2:34am


     Style: Taco Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Well, to me, 15 years of going to China and around Asia interviewing the surviving Wing Chun Masters, taking photos and movies of their forms, and Researching the Historical record for evidence of the so named people (Ng Mui and Yim Wing Tsun), then publishing a 400+ page book could be considered "much".
    Leung Ting is not known as a historian, despite his book which had ghost writers. As far as evidence of "so named people" (Ng Mui and Yim Wing Tsun), most modern research has shown those two to be folklore legends as opposed to real historical people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Intersting, you think he bought off those 100,000 plus students in Europe with his Millions? Not a critical thinker in the whole bunch I imagine......Just out of Curiosity, was he rich before WT, or did he get rich off WT?
    That's probably closer to the truth than you think. KK was a millionaire before WT - sales/marketing guru. He put together the European machine for LT, builte the empire, accomodated his vices. Their intimidation tactics are well known - they would send groups in and threaten competition, driving them out of town. It's not a matter of lack of critical thinking - it was a McDojo machine and a monopoly - the only game in town through 20+ years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I know the VT museum, they have their own bias as well, I would use them, but webpages can be changed or disappear, books are physical and thus make better references over time. The Complete Wing Chun Book only briefly mentions Leung Ting, while he covers many of the same topics as they do in his book.
    Everyone has their own bias. The VTM has a printed work too - the MKF - Shaolin Wing Chun, which gives history but is mostly about one lineage. I was just offering a VT resource that you asked for. They have traveled and documented discoveries in timelines on their web site, and have a good Chinese/English wing chun term translator.
  5. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 2:41am


     Style: Taco Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Chu Sau Lei (Robert Chu) is the "real deal" ... do you know what other TCMA system he has in his background ... his WC sits upon it. John
    So it's Chu that is th3 r3al d3al in _ing _un. That's pretty funny. The other system in his background is acupuncture / oriental medicine and jumping around from sifu who disowned him to studying with Hawkins Cheung for a few years long distance.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 3:43am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    In sparring there is this in and out effect. In WT there is mostly just in and more in. In a spar, you are not trying to knock out or incapacitate and many of the damaging strikes are done at reduced power.
    People can and do practice sparring at full power in other arts.
  7. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 3:53am


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I do defend alot of Leung Ting stuff strictly on principle, some one on here has too.
    Why would you do that? Why have you elected yourself as defender? Why do you think someone on here has to do it?
  8. DANINJA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 3:58am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TacoFu
    Leung Ting never did much lineage research. Keith K who is a millionaire funded the takeover of Europe for Ting.

    Never heard this before!!!
    where did u get this info from?









    ~added "/" to close quote
    Last edited by Miguksaram; 8/30/2005 8:27am at .
  9. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 4:49am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    People can and do practice sparring at full power in other arts.
    And they do it in WC too... its just bogus to say that WC can't be done effectively in sparring conditions. Sparring isn't to the death... people say "Enough" all the time in sparring... they acknowledge that "that was it"... even in full contact sparring. I tend to do light-medium contact sparring without protective equipment, and I do WC... I don't tend to do full contact sparring due to a lack of good protective gear... the funny thing is, once you put on protective gear and go 'full contact' it can be kind of ridiculous -- people cut sick without any thought of defense.

    Then again I'm not someone who does the LT WT fighting style... but I do sometimes do that kind of thing, and have done so before...i.e. charge at someone with rolling punches... and dont see anything wrong with doing it in sparring from a safety perspective-- just takes control.
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 8/30/2005 4:59am at .
  10. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 4:56am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TacoFu
    I disagree with the statement regarding forward force. If you have proper structure forward force is a byproduct, not due to rigidity and "muscling" technique. One of the most primary principles of WC/WT/VT is to "go to center and dominate". If there is no bridge or a weak bridge you cross it, burn it to the ground, and pillage the island on the other side.

    Maybe you've sparred rigid "bull elk" syndrome people and their rigidity has given you a lever and allowed you to open a hole. But if you give up center to someone fluid with structure you will be on the run continually.

    Don't give up center, unless you are changing space to redefine center. But then again, you wouldn't be giving up center.
    Heh this is one case where I'm not sure if we are simply disagreeing due to semantics. 'Forward force', as I was thinking about it, is where you would try to push through your opponent with a shape. E.g. someone punches, and you block with tan sau, you maintain contact and push through the opponents arm. Some style recommend that you ALWAYS do this. I would sugge that if you do this, then be careful with it. Unless you are very familiar with exactly what you are doing there is a good chance that pushing against someone like this will be an opportunity for them to redirect your arm and then a strike or somethign will fly into the gap.

    If you mean 'forward force' as being simply a good structure on the centreline e.g. a tan sau with a good elbow used on the centreline in the correct position for a given punch, then I agree with you.

    I agree with what you've said about centreline in general.
  11. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 12:00pm


     Style: Taco Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    Heh this is one case where I'm not sure if we are simply disagreeing due to semantics. 'Forward force', as I was thinking about it, is where you would try to push through your opponent with a shape. E.g. someone punches, and you block with tan sau, you maintain contact and push through the opponents arm. Some style recommend that you ALWAYS do this. I would sugge that if you do this, then be careful with it. Unless you are very familiar with exactly what you are doing there is a good chance that pushing against someone like this will be an opportunity for them to redirect your arm and then a strike or somethign will fly into the gap.

    If you mean 'forward force' as being simply a good structure on the centreline e.g. a tan sau with a good elbow used on the centreline in the correct position for a given punch, then I agree with you.

    I agree with what you've said about centreline in general.
    Maybe it's a semantics thing. Perhaps 'forward intent' is a better description. I do know a few lineages that have none of that in chi sau. I don't know if I can relate to your tan sau example. I would think it idiotic to try and force tan sau into an opponent - it's purpose is dispersing energy, and is turning in nature, and when you're late. With your structure e.g. I'm getting a horrible mind picture of the toe-in, tennis-ball-between-knees, elbow on center stance that will get you beat like a rented mule with arthritis. Tell me that isn't so. Try experimenting with your elbow on your tit line and see how it roots your structure into your hips/stance.
  12. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 1:09pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TacoFu
    Everyone has their own bias. The VTM has a printed work too - the MKF - Shaolin Wing Chun, which gives history but is mostly about one lineage. I was just offering a VT resource that you asked for. They have traveled and documented discoveries in timelines on their web site, and have a good Chinese/English wing chun term translator.
    The Bias of each source is the reason I want to put up the comparisons. I will look for that book, thank you. I think I will also have to use some of VT museum info, if its themes are not covered in either book I am using.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    People can and do practice sparring at full power in other arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?
    And they do it in WC too... its just bogus to say that WC can't be done effectively in sparring conditions. Sparring isn't to the death... people say "Enough" all the time in sparring... they acknowledge that "that was it"... even in full contact sparring
    Look guys this is a circular reasoning game. On a different thread when I said stop because I felt I had done an effective fight ender, in a medium contact situation, it turned into a "would never work" debate. Even full contact is still not fighting with real intent. Hopefully it is still sparring, not maimeing.

    I was trying to make only two simple points. Sparring is a skill in itself. People not used to sparring will have difficulty untill they learn the skill. Second, o nevermind...

    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    Why would you do that? Why have you elected yourself as defender? Why do you think someone on here has to do it?
    In the intrest in fair representation, as this is Bullshido. All I have seen on here is LT WT bashing, and much of it is false lies passed on as truth by his enemys. Since I no longer owe him alligence of any kind, and I would actually benifit more by attempting to destroy him, I make a good neutral representative.

    Unless you would rather just hear one side of the story.
    :5propelle
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 8/30/2005 4:38pm at . Reason: spelling
  13. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 7:07pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TacoFu
    Maybe it's a semantics thing. Perhaps 'forward intent' is a better description. I do know a few lineages that have none of that in chi sau. I don't know if I can relate to your tan sau example. I would think it idiotic to try and force tan sau into an opponent - it's purpose is dispersing energy, and is turning in nature, and when you're late. With your structure e.g. I'm getting a horrible mind picture of the toe-in, tennis-ball-between-knees, elbow on center stance that will get you beat like a rented mule with arthritis. Tell me that isn't so. Try experimenting with your elbow on your tit line and see how it roots your structure into your hips/stance.
    Theres some schools of WC that teach that you should use 'forward force' in chi-sau... i.e. lean into the opponent with the shapes and kind of try and grind over them. I'm not proposing this is a good idea in the slightest.

    Forward intent is a better idea if by that you mean to keep the centre.

    Heh the stance you described is a good isometric training drill only. Fighting like this would be ridiculous.
  14. TacoFu is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2005 7:52pm


     Style: Taco Do

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DANINJA
    Never heard this before!!!
    where did u get this info from?
    There are plenty of former LT WC sifu disgruntled and talking. I'm sure even Dr. Tzun's sifu Emin would be able to confirm some of this...
  15. pox is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2005 4:14am


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    wasn't this about origin stories at one point?
    I'm not sure where the arguments about how lineage affects sparring fit in with the topic.

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