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  1. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 5:55pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JFS USA
    Yet more rubbish ... by you. I NEVER stated I was going to "clean your clock" ... I specifically stated "touch hands" and that's as non-threatening as it ever gets. As far as I know not a single person has ever been injured in any way while touching hands.

    I used a M16-A1 in Peru ... I don't own one and I wouldn't walk the streets with it if I did so you can just jettison that reference.



    Good grief ... take a human physiology course or two will you? They "lock up" because they have breached their lactic acid clearance rate threshold. John
    I wasn't threatened, I knew what you meant.....and it sounds fun.

    Peru was more about combat experience, and its effect on staying calm in situations after. A combat verteran will have an easier time attending a throwdown and faceing a stranger then a regular civilian, I would think.

    I was not refering to latic acid threshold, I was refering to the numerous video fotage of buff tuffs in real fights. Under the stress, they just punch by twisting back and forth at the waist, their upper body locked up in a "bench press" shape. I very much doubt they punch a heavy bag like this when calm. I have seen it happen to people I know too.

    :qbluepira
  2. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:07pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gentlemen, as a staff member I'd like to remind everyone that this is our one actively moderated section, and I would ask that people not make certain personal comments, or comments totally unrelated to Wing Chun's history. This would include whether someone has certain personality traits because they come from a certain state, or whether certain people from here want to get together to test their technique. It is appropriate to say "that lineage story is garbage," but not "you believe that crap because of X, Y, or Z"

    Carry on.
  3. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 7:21pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very well....

    The idea of doing the SNT form in a relaxed way is two fold.

    It is done the most often, so it will impart a relaxed nature to your muscles. This in turn helps when you have a surge of Adreniline. This fuel works your muscle memory, and guess what, if they remember being rigid.....

    Second, the SNT is very much like Chi Gung forms except it is all centerline focused. I have not seen any extremely contracted Chi Gung sets for beginners. I have seen fully extending limbs and also compressing muscles and such, but not the red faced blood vessel popping stuff as from the fully rigid people.

    Rigidity doesn't seem to fit with chi sau. This in turn makes me wonder where and how it got introduced into WC or VT programs. The idea of "Springing forward when freed" requires one set of muscles to turn off so the other can take over to move the limb forward. Bil Gee, is this the effect you are talking about?

    Forward pressure is created not by holding two muscle groups against each other, then turning one off. That requires to much thought and signeling from the nervous system. Forward pressure is one muscle group pushing the limb forward, and varying the amount of pressure it exerts on contact. It just automatically goes forward without opposition.

    This is a major differense in some WC vs WT.
  4. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 8:51pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Guys, I am writing up a review of "Roots of Wing Tsun", Leung Ting and "Complete Wing Chun", by Chu, Ritchie and Wu, for readers to compare. Since these cover WT and WC mostly, is there a good VT reference book out there the Ving Tsun people could recomend.
  5. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/27/2005 10:20pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I wasn't threatened, I knew what you meant.....and it sounds fun.
    Cool ... BambooTempleUSA@aol.com Send me an Email sometime and we'll hook up. You might the SPM Set Fik Sau to your liking. I have another Chinese acquaintance in NYC, WC guy as well, and I've been looking for an opportunity to teach him the Set.

    Peru was more about combat experience, and its effect on staying calm in situations after. A combat verteran will have an easier time attending a throwdown and faceing a stranger then a regular civilian, I would think.
    I understand your perspective but let me clue you in on a little secret. There is NOTHING calm about modern warfare. Most guys lose all bladder and bowel control the first time rounds start cracking by the head ... for me ... it was the first two times. Thank God for swamps.

    I don't put a lot of stock in modern warfare experience transferring to a Throwdown or similar setting. The mind set, emotional ramp up, everything is different. In one setting the very real possibility exists of coming home in a body bag. Contrary to Hollywood ... the other side has some high speed low drag Soldiers ... the "bad guys" don't always miss when they shoot and a lot of times the wrong people get killed.

    What's the worse that can happen in a Throwdown? Spit some teeth ... that's what Dental Plans are for ... ribs broken ... it's called Health Care Insurance ... get embarrassed ... do the best you can and there is no read to hang your head over it. It's a learning experience and should have at least some element of "fun" involved.

    I was not refering to latic acid threshold, I was refering to the numerous video fotage of buff tuffs in real fights. Under the stress, they just punch by twisting back and forth at the waist, their upper body locked up in a "bench press" shape. I very much doubt they punch a heavy bag like this when calm. I have seen it happen to people I know too.
    Okay, got it. Yeah, makes sense ... their body naturally gravitates towards the configuration with which it is most familiar in order to produce force in the direction required ... bench press. John
  6. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 3:12am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey Tzu mate, there's nothing wrong with using bong sau as a block - it gets repeatedly done (with a pivot) in the Chum Kiu form.

    Doing a form relaxed and relaxation in a fight are not directly causally related. Doing an intense SLT that really power loads the body isometrically to take the forces involved in attacking and defending is relevant for bringing the body to a level where it could be relaxed under pressure. It leads to relaxation because you dont need to tense up to use your power as you have trained specifically to develop the structure to absorb and dish out force.

    I also think that the idea of permanent, unconditional forward force is a bad idea. It can make someone easy to read. When someone feels that you are doing it they would be wise to pull your pushing arm and drag you into an attack. It is also contrary to the idea of relaxation/calmness as a rest state.
    Last edited by Lefty; 8/28/2005 4:50am at .
  7. Bil Gee is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:02am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Hey Tzu mate, there's nothing wrong with using bong sau as a block - it gets repeatedly done (with a pivot) in the Chum Kiu form.

    Doing a form relaxed and relaxation in a fight are not directly causally related. Doing an intense SLT that really power loads the body isometrically to take the forces involved in attacking and defending is relevant for bringing the body to a level where it could be relaxed under pressure. It leads to relaxation because you dont need to tense up to use your power as you have trained specifically to develop the structure to absorb and dish out force.

    I also think that the idea of permanent, unconditional forward force is a bad idea. It can make someone easy to read. When someone feels that you are doing it they would be wise to pull your pushing arm and drag you into an attack. It is also contrary to the idea of relaxation/calmness as a rest state.

    I've been taught in forms and in Chi Sau not to let your opponent feel any energy in any direction until you're actually using a technique.
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:23am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Hey Tzu mate, there's nothing wrong with using bong sau as a block - it gets repeatedly done (with a pivot) in the Chum Kiu form.
    This may work as a block, but any block can be faked out, causing you to move into a vulnerable position. A core concept of WT is that you only do attacks, and if impeded on the Way in, then the limb is deformed by the pressure of the attack. So if bong with pivot makes a good block, what is the attacking part?

    (Warning above was a trick question)

    In WT all bong sau start as a punch.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    Doing a form relaxed and relaxation in a fight are not directly causally related. Doing an intense SLT that really power loads the body isometrically to take the forces involved in attacking and defending is relevant for bringing the body to a level where it could be relaxed under pressure. It leads to relaxation because you dont need to tense up to use your power as you have trained specifically to develop the structure to absorb and dish out force.
    A strucure based on Rigid contractions, mucles in opposition? or a structue of geometry? It can be done I guess but it just adds unneeded complexity and it flys in the face of the Bullshido code of doing what you need in sparring (see below).


    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    I also think that the idea of permanent, unconditional forward force is a bad idea. It can make someone easy to read. When someone feels that you are doing it they would be wise to pull your pushing arm and drag you into an attack. It is also contrary to the idea of relaxation/calmness as a rest state.
    Not getting the concept. Centerline theory boils down to the fact that the WT is always attacking. That is the physical centerline, in the structure of the body, guided by the conceptual Centerline, which is often talked about. If your strike is not intercepted, then you are striking. That means you hit them or kick them.

    Why do bong wu when you could hav epossible hit them allready?

    The elastic forces of the tendons will return your limb to the ready postion, or your enemys force will put pressure on the limb to move it back. At a certain angle the limb retreats no more, and the hips or footwork kick in to move the whole body out of the way. You shouldn't turnon purpose unless you need power for a finishing strike.

    The whole focus is to learn to turn the bicep comepletly off, and have the arm controled by the tricep only. By varying the force of the Tricep contraction. Ofcoarse the bicep itself will kick in as an antagonistic effect in aiming and such control movements, but it must turn completely off to not effect the fastest punch. Maybe the shoulder muscles take over the aiming? (this also boils back to my mention of tuffs twisting at the waist only for power)

    Now I have seen WC use the Bong shape as a block (or better, the bong/wu shape) and I myself have used it, when I recognize an attack that is done from to far away and gives itself away. It is even in the forms often with the kicks. But when the person is closer, this does not work every time. Striking in a way that covers your vital targets while attacking the enemys has a better chance.

    Lefty, I hear your arguement about being strong enough to stay relaxed, and I think we do have that kind of strength training contraction in the WT forms. I think that extreme contracting and holding the position leads to slow, held positions in sparring and fighting for real. This is no Wing Chun or __g __n. IMHO, rigid poseing has not a place in the traditional theory. :icon_sunn

    I see that Bil Gee is up too! I gotta go to bed!!! I am talking to Austrailia and UK at the same time :cya: His coment refers to the "flow like water" concept. Moving around force or slowing it enough to get new angle on it. I think Lefty means the same concept though.

    This is the trick. In the third part of SNT, you withdraw a Pak sau under tension (muscles in oppositoin, one slightly more then the other to dreate movement). Then a Fook sau is drawn out in oppoition in the same way. The Huen Sau hand movement is at full speed. That is the clue to the mature of the drill.

    It also is not in every part of the form either, only here as a motion to go in or out in a tension movement, being just stronger or just weaker than the antagonstic force. In this one place in the first three forms you simulate the enemys force with your own muscle. Every where else (in forms) you only practice letting the tendons stop your forward motion at the right point. :icon_clow

    :XXfish:
  9. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:25am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bil Gee
    I've been taught in forms and in Chi Sau not to let your opponent feel any energy in any direction until you're actually using a technique.
    Yes I've been taught this too. In fact I've sparred people who use WC 'constant forward force' and its very easy to counter. If the idea is to use WC shapes to open a hole in the opponents guard (i.e. arms) for a strike, or to 'bridge the gap' of an opponent who is throwing powerful strikes, then blocking as softly as possible is important. However, knowing how to apply jing when contact is made is important too. Using 'forward force' all the time is a bad idea -- it tends to come when people become too used to the drill they've been practicing and aren't doing any drills with 'aliveness'.
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 8/28/2005 6:27am at .
  10. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:33am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Only when they overpower you should you need to tan or bong, Your punch itself should deflect attacks otherwise . Jum or Pac also deal with stronger presure, but they continue as attacks. Bong and Tan are bent so much they must be freed again to spring forward. If you use them as blocks you might as well be doing Karate or other blocking arts.

    The point is you are always attacking at full power, and have learned to slow this on contact so as to be un-detectable. Alot of people from WC I have meet have weight on front foot, giving away balance, some even lean on you!!! Forward force should not give away balance......
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 8/28/2005 6:37am at .
  11. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:48am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    This may work as a block, but any block can be faked out, causing you to move into a vulnerable position. A core concept of WT is that you only do attacks, and if impeded on the Way in, then the limb is deformed by the pressure of the attack. So if bong with pivot makes a good block, what is the attacking part?

    (Warning above was a trick question)

    In WT all bong sau start as a punch.




    A strucure based on Rigid contractions, mucles in opposition? or a structue of geometry? It can be done I guess but it just adds unneeded complexity and it flys in the face of the Bullshido code of doing what you need in sparring (see below).




    Not getting the concept. Centerline theory boils down to the fact that the WT is always attacking. That is the physical centerline, in the structure of the body, guided by the conceptual Centerline, which is often talked about. If your strike is not intercepted, then you are striking. That means you hit them or kick them.

    Why do bong wu when you could hav epossible hit them allready?

    The elastic forces of the tendons will return your limb to the ready postion, or your enemys force will put pressure on the limb to move it back. At a certain angle the limb retreats no more, and the hips or footwork kick in to move the whole body out of the way. You shouldn't turnon purpose unless you need power for a finishing strike.

    The whole focus is to learn to turn the bicep comepletly off, and have the arm controled by the tricep only. By varying the force of the Tricep contraction. Ofcoarse the bicep itself will kick in as an antagonistic effect in aiming and such control movements, but it must turn completely off to not effect the fastest punch. Maybe the shoulder muscles take over the aiming? (this also boils back to my mention of tuffs twisting at the waist only for power)

    Now I have seen WC use the Bong shape as a block (or better, the bong/wu shape) and I myself have used it, when I recognize an attack that is done from to far away and gives itself away. It is even in the forms often with the kicks. But when the person is closer, this does not work every time. Striking in a way that covers your vital targets while attacking the enemys has a better chance.

    Lefty, I hear your arguement about being strong enough to stay relaxed, and I think we do have that kind of strength training contraction in the WT forms. I think that extreme contracting and holding the position leads to slow, held positions in sparring and fighting for real. This is no Wing Chun or __g __n. IMHO, rigid poseing has not a place in the traditional theory. :icon_sunn

    I see that Bil Gee is up too! I gotta go to bed!!! I am talking to Austrailia and UK at the same time :cya: His coment refers to the "flow like water" concept. Moving around force or slowing it enough to get new angle on it. I think Lefty means the same concept though.

    This is the trick. In the third part of SNT, you withdraw a Pak sau under tension (muscles in oppositoin, one slightly more then the other to dreate movement). Then a Fook sau is drawn out in oppoition in the same way. The Huen Sau hand movement is at full speed. That is the clue to the mature of the drill.

    It also is not in every part of the form either, only here as a motion to go in or out in a tension movement, being just stronger or just weaker than the antagonstic force. In this one place in the first three forms you simulate the enemys force with your own muscle. Every where else (in forms) you only practice letting the tendons stop your forward motion at the right point. :icon_clow

    :XXfish:
    I am a big believer in the use of bong sau. I use it all the time, but not as you describe.

    The bong sau doesn't come from a punch that has collapsed. If your punch collapsed like that you would be very weak in the strike. I use it when my hand is on the outside of the arm that is punching. Then all I need to do is roll into bong sau - the punch is deflected slightly upwards, and now my hand is on the inside. A small pivot and step (normally I try and step behind the opponents lead foot) and I am in a great spot for a sweep... or I can now chop the throat... or I can clinch with the wing... or elbow drag... anyway theres lots of options from here.

    If someone punches, and you do bong sau, but its a fake, you now have your arm loaded for a strike, or another block... I practice going from bong sau to jut sau or puk sau a lot (these are similar to your wu sau I believe). I also practise doing a backfist, or backhand chop, or doing a rotating strike that rotates from the horizontal to vertical as it comes to the centerline (this is sometimes called 'sunfist'). Anyway, my point is that it is a very useful shape.

    I dont agree with blocking things that wont hit you. This is a good opportunity to grab the arm, or simply let lose another nastier strike through the gap. If someone has done a strike that is going to miss they are also open to you stepping in at the point (as long as it is done well) because their opportunity on the strike is lost (needs timing though).

    Bong sau can be used to deflect a punch that is in range that you are too late to block with wu/puk/jut sau. This is because it rolls under the punch and deflects upwards. The flicking bong sau from the wooden dummy form shows another use too... bong sau is chambered for striking.... all good blocks should lead to an advantage in a counter striking situation.

    Bong sau-ing a punch from the opposite side (i.e. defender uses right bong sau vs an attacker's right punch) puts you in a great position for an arm lock. After the block you can clinch the arm with bong arm, and then elbow drag/pivot it across the body. Quite nasty... almost had my arm broken with this move a few months ago.

    Anyway all of this is interesting... and points to the fact that WC practitioners use different terminology, have different fighting styles, and have different fundamental principles. This is a real shame, as it is a detriment to the style.

    Perhaps discussions of the origins of the style should try and track back the names of some of these blocks, and see if they exist in other styles of kungfu?
  12. Lefty is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 6:49am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tzu, the pivoting bong is to defend against attacks from the side and the other hand is behind as a setup to grab their arm and trap or break the arm. The move is also used with the butterfly knives. I'm surprised you would argue against its legitimacy because you were earlier arguing for a system based on weapons as the priority over hands whereas now you are arguing against this move in its applications vs hands.
    Last edited by Lefty; 8/28/2005 7:08am at .
  13. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 7:02am


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Only when they overpower you should you need to tan or bong, Your punch itself should deflect attacks otherwise . Jum or Pac also deal with stronger presure, but they continue as attacks. Bong and Tan are bent so much they must be freed again to spring forward. If you use them as blocks you might as well be doing Karate or other blocking arts.
    It depends on how you do bong or tan. They should be as loose and as light as possible... it is the transition into the shape that does the deflection not the hard structure. That is the difference between WC and styles of karate. It is the act of rolling into a bong sau or tan sau that does the deflection... it is not a hard arm block. All of the WC arm structures should roll, one from the other, like a great big happy chi-sau. The bent structure of these blocks means that they are chambered for striking... it is not a bad thing it is an opportunity to generate a powerful strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    The point is you are always attacking at full power, and have learned to slow this on contact so as to be un-detectable. Alot of people from WC I have meet have weight on front foot, giving away balance, some even lean on you!!! Forward force should not give away balance......
    Heh this indicates a difference in fighting style. You are suggesting a style of fighting that involves constant attacks (e.g. chain punching) with most of the weight on the back foot? You should know that other styles of WC have training drills that basically involve someone doing chain punches at them at realistic speed and power, and they have to lock up that person and throw or strike them several times. It is surprisingly easy to do after some practice. Thats not to say what you are describing wont be effective in a RBSD setting - it may well be far superior to what you might face on the str33t... who's to say? All I'm saying is that that approach to fighting is a training drill in other styles.

    Having all of your weight on the backfoot makes you very prone to being pushed or thrown, and to attacks to the front knee (because it is straightened). Striking power is limited because vertical punches can get lots more power by sinking onto the knee during the strike (perhaps during a step). A good punch can be delivered from a more balanced stance. Lifting the foreleg is easier though, and this is probably why I imagine WT schools do this, because it might make chi-gerk easier. Another issue I have with having 100% weight on the back leg is that it makes for bad footwork... this is why so many WT schools have a weird shuffling footwork that is too slow and easy to read.
    Last edited by I aint punchy!?; 8/28/2005 7:05am at .
  14. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 7:08am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well I am not argueing against it entirely. The Concept from WT view point is just that begineers should start only with strikes and work their way up. Hell, I haven't even been taught the Wooden dummy or Biu Tze forms yet....but I know plenty of applications from them for fist fighting.

    If someone punches my face, and I go straight to bong, how do I know I could not have just wedged them away with a better punch to begin with? That is the point.

    I Know those moves you mention. I think alot of time the attacker is allready to deep on you, across the critical distance line. Givingn up your forward hand (Man sau) and dropping it into bong then makes sense, as the Wu then comes forward as a strike. If your are really beat then both bong and Wu can come out for double coverage (or Gaun sau doubled to the side). I am not argueing against these moves in Wing et al. completely. Just that in WT they are not generally the first move you would go for, more of a secondary or tertiary save your ass defense.

    Also, Ting once said that the bong and tan alone did everything for the advanced Practioner. I am sure he also ment the moves done as deflection defense from an attack shape like jum or pak. His point was the you work up to a point where tan and bong can do so much, you need little else.

    But to get there you must learn to use it in all its variations, and the critical one is to learn to deform when over powered, and to strke when the way is free. Just learning alot of blocks is limited by the reaction time equation (Hicks Law).
    :XXcat:
  15. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/28/2005 7:09am

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty
    . I'm surprised you would argue against its legitimacy because you were earlier arguing for a system based on weapons as the priority over hands whereas now you are arguing against this move in its applications vs hands.
    My arguement for the weapons foundation is just one perspective I am not willing to ignore as unfeaisible, i am not commited to it as the only legend... :icon_smil
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