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  1. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:29pm


     Style: hackery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    He merely lacks experience to prove his efficiency.
    Restated: the effectiveness of his ideas has not been demonstrated; in fact, there is a complete lack of evidence.

    So, going back to the general statement above,

    A certain [teacher] who instructs people in [field] has a bunch of ideas for how things might work and has no evidence to demonstrate that his ideas are not crazy crackpot notions. If you want to say that this is "merely [a] lack [of] experience to prove" that his ideas work, you're entitled to phrase it that way. But without that, all that's left is hearsay, supposition, superstition and everything else that falls outside the bounds of modern enlightened scientific thought. ;) Evidence is not one component. It is the overriding component.

    This in stark contrast to other practitioners of [field], who have a body of evidence for the effectiveness of their work and methods, because their work and methods are tested both in the real world and in events that are arranged, like scientific tests, to simulate the real world as well as modern enlightened man can safely and responsibly do so, for the purpose of comparing the effectiveness of various theories.

    Which brings us to:
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    What such person exists?
    The Gracies? You don't think that there aren't hundreds of LEGITIMATE MA schools and gyms out there that meet this criteria? You don't think that there are schools out there that do get uncontestably good/proven results (ie, evidence)? Do you honestly believe that all MA's, teachers and methods are pretty much the same, or that everyone is, as you said of Phil and his students, just in it for a bit of fun?

    Are you retarded? Or just taking the liberal premise of relativism WAAAAAAY too far?

    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    The analogy is flawed.
    What *I* posted wasn't an analogy. It was simply a generalized statement that HAPPENS to be true across a lot of disciplines. It was a statement of fact.
  2. Mor Sao is offline
    Mor Sao's Avatar

    Nothing for Show, All for use

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     Dale Dugas Herbs: The Best Chinese Herbs & The Best Jow for the Best Price! Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Haughty is obviously flawed.

    No one with half a brain would stick to his guns and spout out this crap that is so obvious it hurts.

    Nothing but another no name no spine no experience who has nothing better to do then fill up forums that deal with effective MA's with totally non effective fantasy laden crap from Phil.

    Im out. This tard is doing this to get everyone riled up.







  3. bwerb is offline

    Canuckistanian Refugee

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, JKD Concepts, Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And the award for troll of the week goes to...
    The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.
    ~F. Scott Fitzgerald

    Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing, smashing things up is sometimes very pleasant.
    ~Fyodor Dostoyevsky
  4. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 5:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    Phil is not a doctor. Martial arts are not medicines. Hopefully, this is the end of any such comparisons.
    As other suggested there are numerous likewise comarisons. You cannot teach without an advanced degree in most colleges and education systems. You cannot practice law without passing a bar. In most formalized martial systems you can't teach without certification. The above are all facts. Martial Arts has long been an apprentice based system.
    Quote Originally Posted by unpossible
    Or he can choose to train with someone who is a true expert in [field], who has put his training to work hundreds of times in real-world tests of [field] ability, and whose choice of training methods is backed up by empirical evidence, in lists of students who went on to become successful practicioners, both by the benchmarks and accolades that are widely recognized within the field of [field] and in evidence of real-world effectiveness.
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    What such person exists?
    Haughty, honestly how much do you know about the self defense field? There are numerous people who fit into this category:

    1. Tony Blauer - I've already mentioned him. Highly regarded in the RBSD field (heck both Matt Thornton and JFS like him).
    2. Richard Dimitri - Phil's interview him for the martialist.
    3. Heck even Dan Weber, if you go by his claims, has far more hands on experience and teaches.

    Those are just three. There are countless others in the field (Geoff Thompson is one other, but he's in the UK), even Mark "The Animal" Mac Young. While I don't support all of these folks, the fact is that they have YEARS in the SD business. They all certify (Weber being a possible exception).

    My point is there are numerous programs out there which one can study in order to get certification and to overcome the comments that many have listed here. That Phil or anyone chooses not to undertake these is their choice. But anyone who chooses not to undertake them should not get their hackles raised when people question their qualifications.

    Do you see the point that I'm making?

    - Matt
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  5. haughty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 8:28pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay. You've won me over. Phil's Bullshido.
  6. rexkwon is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 10:03pm


     Style: Thai boxing , JJ ,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Intuitive footwork , try that idea. It makes the whole thing useless.
  7. haughty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 10:32pm


     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is that a jab at me? Typical.
  8. felixmeister is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 11:18pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    An ad hominen argument attacks a person's credibility without addressing his logic. That is exactly what has happened with Phil Elmore. Bullshido users very often dismiss his material not because it is illogical, but rather because he has no real-life experience in dangerous combat. To avoid ad hominen, one must treat the material as anonymous, criticizing only that which does not follow logically. Attacking the author accomplishes nothing.
    But it is accepted that for a technique to be valid it must be tested in as close to realistic conditions as possible. If the 'creator of a tech is unable and/or unwilling to pressure test his/her invented techs then those techs should be assumed to be invalid. Therefore when talking about the invention of a 'new' MA or 'new' techs it is a valid to argue against the credibility and experience of the author.
  9. RoninPimp is offline
    RoninPimp's Avatar

    BJJ Black Belt

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2005 2:08am

    supporting member
     Style: Rex Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    unpossible is so fucking correct it's unreal.

    Jekwyl made the critical point though with this...
    Besides which phil isn't collating emperic evidence for you to use. He's not looking at the statistics of street fights or MMA matches and seeing what techniques are most sucessfull before collating them. He's just pulling together any old **** that he thinks looks good.
    Which reminds me, I've been thinking about writing a rant/article about "Hypethetical Martial Arts and The Scientific Method". Phil Elmore and non hard training RBSDers are are all hypethetical, all the time. They never do experiments. They never analyze other people's experiments. MMA results, sparring results of other "Alive" training (empty hand and all types of weapons), and FBI crime statistics are the equivalent of experiments.

    Making fun of Phil is just the result of it being true. He's fat and looks out of shape. Plus he's Mr. Objectavist but he runs his forum like a dictator. Add in his arrogent know it all attitude and it's just too fucking easy...
    Last edited by RoninPimp; 12/31/2005 2:24am at .
  10. rexkwon is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/31/2005 11:22am


     Style: Thai boxing , JJ ,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    Is that a jab at me? Typical.
    No, it is not a jab. It is just the point that footwork is fundemental to any standup art ,without it one can not control space and movement .
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