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  1. Matt Bernius is offline

    Middleweight

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    Rochester, NY
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 11:42am

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    If you doubt him based on credibility, that's one thing. If you don't trust what he says because he has little or no experience, that's very natural and logical. It still doesn't make him wrong about any given point.
    But it also dones't make him either:

    a. an authority
    or
    b. a qualified teacher

    My issue gets back to that, and I've expressed it to Phil on his forum. He's lamented the fact that the Self Defense industry looks down on hobbiests and doesn't take them seriously. My feeling (ideology if you will) is that he hasn't put in the work to demonstrate that he really understand what he's advocating. And that once you publish something on self defense, despite any disclaimer that you make, you are promising your readers that what you are teaching is going to work and work well.

    There are channels for certification that convey with them high degrees of authority within and outside of the field. I fully admit that I pimp Tony Blauer's marterial. I like it, I've seen it pressure tested. They train in an alive fashion and most importantly they've got a very concise way of approaching self defense. Plus being outside of Toronto, Tony's about four and a half hours away from Phil (five tops). It wouldn't be out of the question for Phil to go get certified under Tony (I know people who come from futher out in NYS to do it). Or fron the Senshido folks in NYC who Phil has complimented on numerous times.

    There's the real issue, the possibility of certification is out there. One can go and learn under an established authority. But Phil, for what ever reason, feels this isn't necessary. I'm not going to suggest why, thats totally up to him and his personal ideology. But one must ask ones self, where would you rather go for medical treatment? To someone whose been through medical school and interned or someone whose read a lot of books and played "Operation?"

    All that said, I still think Phil is a solid writer and reviewer. And I think, while its definitely biased, there is good material in the martialist. As you suggested, your miliage will vary based on your personal belief system.

    - Matt
    Last edited by Matt Bernius; 12/30/2005 12:03pm at .
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  2. unpossible is offline

    Registered Member

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    Dec 2005
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    362

    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 11:47am


     Style: hackery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Or a better example, I'm a tech recruiter (headhunter), by trade.
    really.

    Huh. If my startup doesn't get picked up in the summer founders' program 2006, I might be giving you a call.
  3. Mor Sao is online now
    Mor Sao's Avatar

    Nothing for Show, All for use

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    Aug 2005
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    Tampa, Florida
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Jook Lum South Mantis,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bernius
    But it also dones't make him either:

    a. an authority
    or
    b. a qualified teacher

    My issue gets back to that, and I've expressed it to Phil on his forum. He's lamented the fact that the Self Defense industry looks down on hobbiests and doesn't take them seriously. He's asked the question, why, as a self proclaimed hobbiest, should he not publish a book. And my feeling is that he hasn't put in the work to demonstrate that he really understand what he's advocating. And that once you publish something on self defense, despite any disclaimer that you make, you are promising your readers that what you are teaching is going to work and work well.

    Furhter, there are channels for certification that convey with them high degrees of authority within and outside of the field. I fully admit that I pimp Tony Blauer's marterial. I like it, I've seen it pressure tested. They train in an alive fashion and most importantly they've got a very concise way of approaching self defense. Plus being outside of Toronto, Tony's about four and a half hours away from Phil (five tops). It wouldn't be out of the question for Phil to go get certified under Tony (I know people who gone from futher out in NYS to do it). Or fron the Senshido folks in NYC who Phil has complimented on numerous times.

    There's the real issue, the possibility of certification is out there. Of learning under and established authority. But Phil for what ever reasons feels this isn't necessary. I'm not going to suggest why, thats totally up to him. But one must ask ones self, where would you rather go for medical treatment? To someone whose been through medical school or someone whose read a lot of books and played "Operation?"

    All that said, I still think Phil is a solid writer and reviewer. And I think, while its definitely biased, there is good material in the martialist. As you suggested, your miliage will vary based on your personal belief system.

    - Matt
    As Phrost noted, Phil is not into hard contact, if he cannot handle that then he would not even think about getting into Tony Blauers stuff which is hardcore. Again the laziness and sloth seem to rear its head rather than train and become used to the contact. Fighting is about contact, end of story.







  4. Shuma-Gorath is offline
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    The argument that Phil's teachings are wrong because he has never been in a threatening situation holds no water. If an idea is sound, it makes no difference whether or not it has ever been put into practice. Right ideas have their own inherent merit, apart from those who deliver them.
    The life-long quadriplegic does not know how to swim.
  5. Jekyll is offline
    Jekyll's Avatar

    .

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    On the wrong side of the pond for gong sau
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: San shou(tai chi) +judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    The truth is the truth. It may require empirical evidence to identify, but that's another story.
    The bottom line is; martial arts are not information based, they are ability based.

    This is an understanding missing from all clubs that do not train with what mat thorton calls 'aliveness'.

    I don't care if you think you know how to throw a good punch or sink a triangle choke. What matters is; Can you do it?

    That's where training with resistance comes in and learning to make these techniques work against people who don't want you to make these techniques work. And this is what counts.

    Besides which phil isn't collating emperic evidence for you to use. He's not looking at the statistics of street fights or MMA matches and seeing what techniques are most sucessfull before collating them. He's just pulling together any old **** that he thinks looks good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stickx
    It must suck for legit practitioners of tai chi like Cullion to see their art get all watered down into exercise for seniors.
    Those who esteme qi have no strength. ~ Exposition of Insights into the Thirteen Postures Attrib: Wu Yuxiang founder of Wu style tai chi.
  6. haughty is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:39pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Bernius
    But it also dones't make him either:
    But one must ask ones self, where would you rather go for medical treatment? To someone whose been through medical school and interned or someone whose read a lot of books and played "Operation?"
    This is at least the second time this analogy has popped up.

    Phil is not a doctor. Martial arts are not medicines. Hopefully, this is the end of any such comparisons.
  7. Shuma-Gorath is offline
    Shuma-Gorath's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    This is at least the second time this analogy has popped up.

    Phil is not a doctor. Martial arts are not medicines. Hopefully, this is the end of any such comparisons.
    Are you incapable of understanding analogies or should I draw you a chart?
  8. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 12:53pm


     Style: hackery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    This is at least the second time this analogy has popped up.

    Phil is not a doctor. Martial arts are not medicines. Hopefully, this is the end of any such comparisons.
    Phil is someone with an opinion on the way that people should train in [field].

    If a student of [field] chooses to train ineffectively, it can affect him in a variety of negative ways, some perhaps very serious.

    A student of [field] can choose to train with someone who has no evidence, no relevant experience, and no ability. There are certain qualities that one must have to succeed in real-world application of [field]; this prospective teacher is notably deficient in all of them.

    Or he can choose to train with someone who is a true expert in [field], who has put his training to work hundreds of times in real-world tests of [field] ability, and whose choice of training methods is backed up by empirical evidence, in lists of students who went on to become successful practicioners, both by the benchmarks and accolades that are widely recognized within the field of [field] and in evidence of real-world effectiveness.

    Fill in "field" with:

    Medicine
    Martial Arts
    Computer Science
    Dance
    Musical Theater
    Painting
    Architecture

    This is called an "analogy." The point of analogies is that we shouldn't have to spell them out like this. Your brain is supposed to be able to do this automatically.
  9. haughty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:15pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by unpossible
    Phil ... is notably deficient in all of them.
    No, that is not necessarily true. He merely lacks experience to prove his efficiency.

    Or he can choose to train with someone who is a true expert in [field], who has put his training to work hundreds of times in real-world tests of [field] ability, and whose choice of training methods is backed up by empirical evidence,
    What such person exists?

    This is called an "analogy." The point of analogies is that we shouldn't have to spell them out like this. Your brain is supposed to be able to do this automatically.
    The analogy is flawed. "Spelling it out," as you have done just now, reveals those flaws plainly.
  10. Shuma-Gorath is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/30/2005 1:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ - Homeland Security

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    No, that is not necessarily true. He merely lacks experience to prove his efficiency.
    That lack of experience implies that he is unqualified to make these claims from an assumed position of authority.
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