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  1. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 9:46am


     Style: hackery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by charmin
    I was writing that post before you'd posted, so my comment was actually to people who thought they'd dredge up Phil Elmore again. I've only been a member for 10 or 11 months, but for ALL of that time, people keep starting these arguments.

    As for you spending a day reading his work, you should ask for your day back.
    I think I've ALMOST got it all out of my system.

    See my post in the "waivers" thread in Throwdown for catharsis via fiction.
  2. SuperGuido is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 10:12am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Many of the older, long term posters here had personal discussions and arguments with Phil back in the day, after which they formed their own opinions. Some posters here have spoken with Phil personally (as personal as online gets), and formed different opinions.

    This is good. Independent thinking is good.

    Like him or hate him, it doesn't matter...so long as you create your OWN opinion. Don't peruse Bullshido, pick up on some of the anti-Phil threads, then immediately cram the bandwagon cock down your throat.

    Not only does it negate the idea of balanced judgement...but it also tastes bad.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how much Bullshido fucks with you because of it.

    Therefore, form your own. Don't rely on a website to create your opinion.

    Oh, by the way, this wasn't directed at anyone, but just represents my opinion.
  3. haughty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 11:49am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    First of all, I know this topic has been beaten to death. If the mods think this thread should be closed or hauled off to trollshido, so be it. What I hope everyone remembers is that just because *you* have dealt with this topic endlessly, it doesn't mean everyone has. I've read a lot of mindless criticism against Phil, and I wanted to explore the issues a little bit, myself. I'm a newbie when it comes to a lot of this stuff, so I hope you all understand I'm only trying to learn what so many people here seem to already know (or disagree with).

    Secondly, I didn't mean to drag up an old thread. I had a dozen different windows open on my desktop, one of which was the 1st page of Bullshido forum threads, another a search of Bullshido threads for "Martialist." In a moment of carelessness, I mistook the latter for the former. Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Finally, I'm not trying to paint Phil as some misunderstood genius, or some such other absurdity. I'm sure a lot of his teachings are questionable at best. Moreover, just like any other real person, he's certainly got some opinions which are just plain wrong. Still, it bothers me that nobody can seem to conjure up a kind word or two for him, and that the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright. I find that very amusing, and also a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of "trolling."
    Last edited by haughty; 12/28/2005 12:18pm at .
  4. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 12:37pm

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    Still, it bothers me that nobody can seem to conjure up a kind word or two for him, and that the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright. I find that very amusing, and also a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of "trolling."
    Are you his wife or something? Phil tries to have a sense of humor. There, I said something nice about him.
  5. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 1:45pm


     Style: hackery

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    First of all, I know this topic has been beaten to death. If the mods think this thread should be closed or hauled off to trollshido, so be it. What I hope everyone remembers is that just because *you* have dealt with this topic endlessly, it doesn't mean everyone has. I've read a lot of mindless criticism against Phil, and I wanted to explore the issues a little bit, myself. I'm a newbie when it comes to a lot of this stuff, so I hope you all understand I'm only trying to learn what so many people here seem to already know (or disagree with).

    Secondly, I didn't mean to drag up an old thread. I had a dozen different windows open on my desktop, one of which was the 1st page of Bullshido forum threads, another a search of Bullshido threads for "Martialist." In a moment of carelessness, I mistook the latter for the former. Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Finally, I'm not trying to paint Phil as some misunderstood genius, or some such other absurdity. I'm sure a lot of his teachings are questionable at best. Moreover, just like any other real person, he's certainly got some opinions which are just plain wrong. Still, it bothers me that nobody can seem to conjure up a kind word or two for him, and that the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright. I find that very amusing, and also a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of "trolling."
    Let's not get into accusations of "trolling." Have you seen his Dictionary of Troll labels? He is the master of victimization/ad hominem/strawman/labelling/etc arguments, and labelling people as trolls is one of them.

    The reason that people are suspicious of you is that, given the fanatical lengths Elmore goes to to publicly rationalize his beliefs and given the relative sophistication of your arguments, it seems not entirely unlike him to come here and make posts like yours.

    For instance, a FEW people accused you of trolling, but a MOD, JKDChick, said that she thought you were "clean" -- ie, not trolling, just uninformed.

    Thus, the statement "a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of trolling" reads like something he would type (and, as you'll see from some of my statements in this thread, I now have the displeasure of being moderately familiar with his work and writing style).

    It's a strawman attack couched in innocent terms, because if you bring up a controversial subject in any (popular, loosely moderated) forum, you will ALWAYS be accused of trolling -- by at least somebody. So the statement isn't entirely false, but it's a strawman, because it implies a lack of respect for diversity of opinion, when in fact the exact opposite has been seen in this very thread.


    Moreover, you say that "the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright." Again, this seems to be a sneaky strawman: as you can see, while doubtless SOME feel that way,

    1) "must be ignored" implies willful avoidance of the issue, when in fact the opposite is true -- it has been discussed SO thoroughly that many are now tired of discussion on the topic, or feel that since the man churns out REAMS of unreadable dreck that it would be a waste of time.
    2) But, again, as we saw in this thread, there are plenty of us at any given time who have no problem hopping into the topic. Hell, there wouldn't be a "PHIL" message icon if people weren't expected to talk about it.
    3) Thus, the statement "the general consensus is that whatever he says must be ignored outright" is wrong.

    The general consensus may well be that he's an idiot, but in fact a much more accurate statement is one that directly contradicts you, which is:
    Phil Elmore is a delusional firebrand, and discussion of the subject can create a lot of dead-horse posts and threads, but lots of people enjoy debating the topic, so now they are held in the "Your Martial Art Sucks" forum.

    Which is a far, far cry from "MUST BE IGNORED." Which conjures up the image of people holding their hands over their ears and humming loudly.


    I've worked in and with PR people and am familiar with a lot of these techniques from debate and public speaking. So while you may just be an intelligent person with a different take on Phil, and I might just be a very cynical person, frankly your posts make me suspicious. ;) Again, that's probably my cynicism.
  6. BenwaMandelbrot is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 2:05pm

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     Style: BJJ, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Aieeee!!

    If you pick at it, it'll just get worse.
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  7. haughty is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 2:07pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by unpossible
    Let's not get into accusations of "trolling." Have you seen his Dictionary of Troll labels? He is the master of victimization/ad hominem/strawman/labelling/etc arguments, and labelling people as trolls is one of them.
    It's probably natural for him to do this, considering his status here. Still, I agree he should be more careful.

    The reason that people are suspicious of you is that, given the fanatical lengths Elmore goes to to publicly rationalize his beliefs and given the relative sophistication of your arguments, it seems not entirely unlike him to come here and make posts like yours.
    Hehe... That is pretty funny. I can't believe people would seriously suspect me of *being* Phil Elmore. Crazy stuff.

    For instance, a FEW people accused you of trolling, but a MOD, JKDChick, said that she thought you were "clean" -- ie, not trolling, just uninformed.
    Point taken. I am given to exaggeration myself, at times. Sorry about that.

    Thus, the statement "a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of trolling" reads like something he would type (and, as you'll see from some of my statements in this thread, I now have the displeasure of being moderately familiar with his work and writing style).

    It's a strawman attack couched in innocent terms, because if you bring up a controversial subject in any (popular, loosely moderated) forum, you will ALWAYS be accused of trolling -- by at least somebody. So the statement isn't entirely false, but it's a strawman, because it implies a lack of respect for diversity of opinion, when in fact the exact opposite has been seen in this very thread.
    Again, point taken. I suppose I was a bit aggravated about some other things, and the frustration seeped into this thread. Again, sorry.

    Moreover, you say that "the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright." Again, this seems to be a sneaky strawman: as you can see, while doubtless SOME feel that way,

    1) "must be ignored" implies willful avoidance of the issue, when in fact the opposite is true -- it has been discussed SO thoroughly that many are now tired of discussion on the topic, or feel that since the man churns out REAMS of unreadable dreck that it would be a waste of time.
    2) But, again, as we saw in this thread, there are plenty of us at any given time who have no problem hopping into the topic. Hell, there wouldn't be a "PHIL" message icon if people weren't expected to talk about it.
    3) Thus, the statement "the general consensus is that whatever he says must be ignored outright" is wrong.

    The general consensus may well be that he's an idiot, but in fact a much more accurate statement is one that directly contradicts you, which is:
    Phil Elmore is a delusional firebrand, and discussion of the subject can create a lot of dead-horse posts and threads, but lots of people enjoy debating the topic, so now they are held in the "Your Martial Art Sucks" forum.

    Which is a far, far cry from "MUST BE IGNORED." Which conjures up the image of people holding their hands over their ears and humming loudly.
    I suppose you're right.

    I've worked in and with PR people and am familiar with a lot of these techniques from debate and public speaking. So while you may just be an intelligent person with a different take on Phil, and I might just be a very cynical person, frankly your posts make me suspicious. ;) Again, that's probably my cynicism.
    Suspicious that I'm Phil Elmore? I can only assure you I'm not.

    You have some great points, and it seems some of my posts here have been a bit hurried and imprecise. However, the main issue--that Phil is unreasonably ridiculed--remains.
  8. JKDChick is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 2:18pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I did an IP check on haughty, no obvious duping. So either he's Phil and he's gotten smart or he's just what he seems.
    Monkey Ninjas! Attack!
  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 3:26pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    First of all, I know this topic has been beaten to death. If the mods think this thread should be closed or hauled off to trollshido, so be it. What I hope everyone remembers is that just because *you* have dealt with this topic endlessly, it doesn't mean everyone has. I've read a lot of mindless criticism against Phil, and I wanted to explore the issues a little bit, myself. I'm a newbie when it comes to a lot of this stuff, so I hope you all understand I'm only trying to learn what so many people here seem to already know (or disagree with).

    Secondly, I didn't mean to drag up an old thread. I had a dozen different windows open on my desktop, one of which was the 1st page of Bullshido forum threads, another a search of Bullshido threads for "Martialist." In a moment of carelessness, I mistook the latter for the former. Sorry for any inconvenience.

    Finally, I'm not trying to paint Phil as some misunderstood genius, or some such other absurdity. I'm sure a lot of his teachings are questionable at best. Moreover, just like any other real person, he's certainly got some opinions which are just plain wrong. Still, it bothers me that nobody can seem to conjure up a kind word or two for him, and that the general consensus here is that whatever he says must be ignored outright. I find that very amusing, and also a bit telling that anyone who diverges from that consensus is immediately accused of "trolling."

    This post made me think about how to recouch my feelings on Phil.

    I don't like Phil's teaching. Phil is a guy who hasn't fought, hasn't completed a legitimate martial arts curriculum, can't fight competitively, won't fight by competitive rules, doesn't know what he's talking about, etc.

    He is a perfect example of a martial arts LARPer - a tourist in our world. The very fact that we are having this conversation, over and over with people, that we continuously have to assure people that yes, even though he's in the same clothes and the same poses and using some of the same language as a real martial artist, he is, in fact, not one - that is the reason Bullshido exists.

    Phil says things that seem correct and logical on the surface but aren't - because he lacks the varnish of experience in the field.

    If you had no experience with math, I could say that multiplication and division were identical, citing the example of 2 * 2 = 2 + 2 and you might be fool for a bit - until you got your own experience and outgrew my primitive musings, which, if I believed them myself, would be obviously false to you - meaning I derived them from bad observation of good data.

    Untested theory is NOT science, and phil's martial ramblings are NOT martial arts - it's nothing more then him going "if someone attacks you, hit them in the nose" - advice so vauge as to be useless, or flat wrong.

    His theories work - theoretically - in his own fantasy examples - which are generally so off beat or vauge they don't matter. It's fine to examine something on its own logic, haughty, but if you think Phil's yammering holds true on the basis of logic - you don't have the tools to examine his work. All that yammering about tac-lights, for example. If someone tries to flash-blind a crook because they read about it on the martialist, the most likely outcome is that Our Hero will get the everloving **** kicked out of him, likely with the flashlight.

    Within the bounds of his forum Phil is a total censor, editing and deleting posts he disagrees with incredible frequency. He takes sick pride in it.

    Phil is also an escalating bullshido artist - as he gets older and farther from the actual performence of the things he speaks on, he gets worse and worse. Since he posted on this forum (from which his IS NOT BANNED and he may, in fact, directly respond to any of this, he simply lacks the heart) he's gone from a simple knife and self defense enthusiast to a man demented about his own experience, completely revising history and publishing his own system, while hiding behind stupid disclaimers that SHOULD tell people not to bother buying the book.

    He's gone from practioner to publishing expert without any significant interviening training - simply by deciding to out a desire for self promotion. He's a slave to his own ego.

    And to answer your earlier response, merely taking some old techniques and adding some of your own does NOT make a valid system of martial arts - that's like saying a few wheels and a few panels in a pile are a car.

    ESPECIALLY when you don't fully understand the moves you're cribbing and the ones you're adding don't actually work like you think.

    This, again, is the reason for this site - people can't tell the difference between Phil and another, more legitimate expert, and it's sick. To continue my car example, what if a buddy was trying to buy that pile of parts, actually intending to drive it someday.

    Would you accept the rationle that "it really has all the same parts as a car" or "Well, I'll probably never have to drive it" or "He seemed like he was having fun using his own type of car - what's the harm in that"

    What would your emotion be if your otherwise rational friend ignored you when you said, "This is just a huge pile of parts, nonsensically connect! You can't drive this down a street - you can't use it for its intended purpose, dude - ever." and he refused to listen?

    The harm in it is that he needs to finish and test-drive the car before he sells it no matter how good it looks on paper.

    Bad martial arts can get someone's ass kicked, or killed. It's not a joke, especially in a self defense context. The street is NOT the place people who bought Phil's untested material in good faith should be testing it for him.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. unpossible is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/28/2005 4:06pm


     Style: hackery

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by haughty
    However, the main issue--that Phil is unreasonably ridiculed--remains.
    Given the amount of ridicule that his pictures alone invite, it's reasonable to assume that in the volumes of ridicule that have been inspired by Phil Elmore, a certain percentage of it is unjustified.

    While true, that doesn't get us anywhere.

    WHAT is he unjustly/unreasonably/inaccurately ridiculed about? It's easy for a discussion of that question to devolve into strawman arguments, where the strawmen are provided by the dregs of a forum community (loosely moderated forums produce a majority of **** posts; the forum format just makes it easy to skip through the **** and pick out the peanuts). It should be very easy to find posts from previous elmore threads that have examples of unreasonable ridicule; however, it would be tiresome to establish what the true "community consensus" is and whether or not it includes unreasonable pretexts..

    Instead, what could make this discussion interesting or productive is to ask a different, better question: what do you see as positive aspects of Phil Elmore and his site that may not be generally shared? And why?
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