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  1. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 8:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leper_Messiah
    Anyone for Dungeons & Dragons and Mountain Dew? :)
    What Edition ? and screw your Dew ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  2. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 8:53pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leper_Messiah
    Anyone for Dungeons & Dragons and Mountain Dew? :)
    No ... but if you have a few "of age" Girls stashed I'm game for playing "Chips, Dips, Chains & Whips" ... and smoking a little opium.
  3. Bard of DorAr is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 9:47pm


     Style: Sabre/Rapier/Katana

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And now I am caught up. And to continue... Fair warning, young man, the title in my handle (not the fencing instructor, the bard) is legitemate, not linked to D&D or SCA or otherwise.. And you REALLY want to have a real debate with me? On a topic I know about first hand versus your "I've read about it" knowledge? Lose the arrogance and step back while you still can. Koto's said it repeatedly, you yourself have no purpose to be here other than to continue this singular arguement. I suggest you leave now.

    Should you choose to continue I expect you to actually read, address and reply to each point completely. Anything else leaves you as nothing but a troll and a liar. And then I stop being nice (note nice, I will still remain civil, as I can successfully do that in ALL situations).

    Quote Originally Posted by plasmagoat
    What "ignorance" would that be?
    Your ignorance is to speak of something you do not have first hand experience in. When it comes to discussion, any topic I choose to involve myself in which I do not have years of personal experience in... I phrase my comments as a question and genuinely want to know what those with actual experience have to say. When I started asking about BJJ on here I was of the opinion that grappling was unimportant. But instead of stating my opinion and arguing it from the get go. I ASKED what was so useful of it and why it was liked so much. Following that I tested it out myself. I found myself wrong and adapated, simple as that. But if I hadn't asked to begin with, if I had just stated that grappling was useless I would have been verbally ripped apart at the best. Your arrogance blinds to you potential evolution, plain and simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by plasmagoat
    I'm winning by a clear margin, it's quite obvious that few people here have any debate experience.
    You are not. Further more the victor cannot be declared by one of the participants in a case like this. To state you are winning is ludicrous and arrogant, nothing more. As for debate experience.. You're cute, deludedly incorrect, but cute.

    Quote Originally Posted by plasmagoat
    There is no argument to present. This is the problem; you turn this into something that it isn't. You turn a 100% subjective personal preference into an "argument" or try make it objective or something that can be extensively debated. Just fucking accept the fact that not everyone has the exact same likes, dislikes, preferences and opinions that you have and maybe you don't have to keep running around in circles here.
    Here's the flaw. A 100% subjective personal preference is one founded on experience. Further more, when something is factually incorrect, being opinion is irrelevent. If I were to decide that in my opinion 2+2=87 I would be FACTUALLY wrong and all the arguing that it's my opinion in the world is meaningless. Now, we accept that some people find civility, manners, enlightenment what have you in the martial arts. We accept it because many of us have found it ourselves. What we ALSO accept is the simple truth that martial arts, in and of themselves, are arts designed to injure, maim and kill other human beings. Anything extra is just that, extra.. Something added to the mix by individuals. Now, if you want to PERSONALLY associate various morality with the martial arts, that's your choice. If you insist that everyone has to accept your opinion, you're out of your mind. If you state your opinion then admit that you aren't actually a martial artist, and a real martial artist can show factually that you are mistaken, then you are wrong.

    To give a more clear example, I ask you to please share with me what your college degrees are focused in. Barring a degree if you could please state a topic of interest to which you have extensive and lengthy knowledge of (Say ten years minimum). From there I can try to phrase an analogy that will make more sense to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by plasmagoat
    The fanatic desire to uproot martial arts bullshit apparently leads to this. Not even the most subjective personal opinion or preference can be accepted; it must be proven, tested and demonstrated at a throwdown before anyone can believe it.
    We are more than willing to accept that you feel there is great enlightenment and civility in martial arts. You refuse to accept that that is purely your take and that the core facts of martial arts have no morality attatched.

    You like to associate certain manners with MA = Opinion
    Martial Arts by itself is purely about combat, any morality is something attatched by the individual = FACT.
  4. Leper_Messiah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 10:09pm


     Style: Fighting without fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Isnt it the nature of any art form and any human experience that it is subjective? Even the "proof" afforded by sparring could be questioned.

    MA is no different than someone arguing aesthetics in a philosophy course. eg. in a throwdown you kick someone in the nuts by mistake and they go down, different people will assess that in different ways. Some people will say the kick was good MA some will say it was bad MA.

    The proof might indicate a positive result but on a different person in a different rule set in a different environment it may be different.
  5. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 10:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr
    Martial Arts by itself is purely about combat, any morality is something attatched by the individual = FACT.
    Actually, Bard, it's even a bit more "base" than that. MA of itself is nothing more than an information bundle. It is no more "about combat" than a handgun is about combat. MA is a skill set and as such has no volition of its own ... it simply is (denotes the obtainment of skill) or it is not (no skill).

    It is in how one chooses, or not chooses, to utilize, employ, or use the skill set they have developed that brings forth the Colors of the Rainbow.

    Even if we set aside the above ... the position that MA is or should be in some fashion equated with ethics, morality, virtue, whatever is a case of erroneous reverse engineering.

    We can use the "Shaolin Temple Origin Myth" as an example. We suspend concerns regarding facts and truth value ... we simply accept it on its face. What do we find? Martial movement was brought into the Temple ... the Temple did not go outside seeking the Martial. This is a critical distinction lost on many.

    Therefore, the proper sequence of evolutionary development, quest for Spiritual perfection, or personal cultivation is to have the issues, the attending resolutions, revolving around morality, etc., as the foundation. The Martial is built upon or added to this foundation.

    The building does NOT make the foundation ... and for purposes of this discussion that translates to "Virtue does not flow from the Martial."

    From a purely pragmatic perspective MA as such does nothing beyond exist in an individual. It is only when actualized ... made manifest ... that the skill set, the Art, lives and it lives only in that moment.

    From a philosophical view, MA could never possibly give rise - birth to morality, virtue or anything for that matter. MA in of itself is not alive ... it requires the Human Condition to be made animate ... and that which is inanimate - dead cannot give life to anything in any form.
  6. Bard of DorAr is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 10:35pm


     Style: Sabre/Rapier/Katana

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fair enough, though I don't know that I'd agree to quite that far, but that's a debate for another time.

    Keeping in mind I don't fully agree, perhaps I should have phrased it as "Martial Arts in itself is a knowledge/skill set specifically about doing physical harm." or some such? I'll admit I wrote the last two or three lines quickly... (Well, more quickly than the rest anyway).

    On a separate note. Plasma: I have read the thread which apparantly started this. While JFS does become legitemately insulting and antagonizing later on, he was not such to begin with. You stated that you had always thought MA were associated with certain behaviors. A belief which is factually incorrect regardless of your personal opinions on the matter. In response you had a single user make a JOKE response as opposed to simply explaining it to you. He deliberately made a completely over the top insult and attack... And he did it strictly to make a point that not all MAists are of a certain behavioral pattern. Then you chose to comment from a supposed moral high ground (read arrogance). You did this repeatedly with a more and more high handed approach. That of an adult speaking to a three year old throwing a tantrum. At THIS point, JFS decided to keep the approach he did and badger you some more..

    This whole matter would have been avoided if you had responded to a tongue in cheek comment with anything other than conceit and arrogance. Thusly all of this debate does lay squarely on your lap when it comes to cause. Could JFS been more polite? Sure. But that does not change that it was you who initially took something too seriously and drug it overboard.

    Reminds me of the guy who spent three pages ragging on (Omega I think?) about bashing Cannadians..
  7. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 10:39pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Leper_Messiah
    Isnt it the nature of any art form and any human experience that it is subjective?
    Nope .. . you step up and Rep and get your ass handed to you ... guess what ... that's as objective as it gets.

    Even the "proof" afforded by sparring could be questioned.
    If you want to wallow in the "How many Angels can dance on the head of a pin" cess pool ... sure. Might as well question your own existence as well and then just go ahead and shoot yourself as we are born dying. What's your fucking point?

    MA is no different than someone arguing aesthetics in a philosophy course. eg. in a throwdown you kick someone in the nuts by mistake and they go down, different people will assess that in different ways. Some people will say the kick was good MA some will say it was bad MA.
    That's utter bullshit ... what fucking College or University did you go to in order to (not) think like that? The objective reality is that someone got kicked in the balls and was too much of a panty waste to suck it up and drive on. That other **** you bring up represents value judgments imposed by those not directly involved and have nothing to do with the "fact" that someone got nut shot and couldn't take it.

    The proof might indicate a positive result but on a different person in a different rule set in a different environment it may be different.
    And in a different Universe in a different dimension on a different Planet that **** you posted might even make sense.
  8. JFS USA is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2005 10:47pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: H'ung Ga & SPM

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr
    Keeping in mind I don't fully agree, perhaps I should have phrased it as "Martial Arts in itself is a knowledge/skill set specifically about doing physical harm." or some such?
    Okay, I can go with that. My approach is to chunk everything down. Therefore, the knowledge/ skill set to which you refer would be crystallized to "pure bio-mechanical neurological entrainment" + "knowledge of Human Anatomy" + "repeated exposure to pressure testing" in order to properly reconcile "text book information" with real World.

    This would result in an interface of undetermined depth that would be periodically subjected to exploration by way of pressure testing until the break point was found and entered.
  9. plasmagoat is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2005 4:25am


     Style: Nothing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    OK, first you say you're winning because nobody can debate against you, then you say we're not having a debate. So you're actually winning something you're claiming isn't happening?
    Where did I say that there's no debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi
    plasma goat, i have been silently reading the things posted here on both sides and have come to the conclusion that you are a total retard. you are way out of your league in not only debate, but in simple common sense...but then again....
    "Common sense in uncommon." D.W.O.Char
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr
    Being several pages behind, forgive me, but I wanted to bring this up specifically.

    PLASMAGOAT.

    On Page 29 you made a statement that you expect civility, then state that it's impossible to maintain such in this enviroment.

    I just wanted to point out that you're blatantly wrong as I carry myself with said level of civility on this board and other people screaming at me has never caused me to drop and retaliate the same.

    Again, you lack the willpower to act as you feel everyone else should act and maintain it if it becomes "difficult". This is a failing in you, not in others being willing to ignore poor behavior.

    Now back to my reading on Page 29..
    Didn't I already tell you that it serves no purpose, has no benefits and is widely disliked here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr
    And now I am caught up. And to continue... Fair warning, young man, the title in my handle (not the fencing instructor, the bard) is legitemate, not linked to D&D or SCA or otherwise.. And you REALLY want to have a real debate with me? On a topic I know about first hand versus your "I've read about it" knowledge? Lose the arrogance and step back while you still can. Koto's said it repeatedly, you yourself have no purpose to be here other than to continue this singular arguement. I suggest you leave now.
    Uh, what topic would that be? There's several in here.

    Your ignorance is to speak of something you do not have first hand experience in. When it comes to discussion, any topic I choose to involve myself in which I do not have years of personal experience in... I phrase my comments as a question and genuinely want to know what those with actual experience have to say. When I started asking about BJJ on here I was of the opinion that grappling was unimportant. But instead of stating my opinion and arguing it from the get go. I ASKED what was so useful of it and why it was liked so much. Following that I tested it out myself. I found myself wrong and adapated, simple as that. But if I hadn't asked to begin with, if I had just stated that grappling was useless I would have been verbally ripped apart at the best. Your arrogance blinds to you potential evolution, plain and simple.
    That's nice, but what does it have to do with me?

    You are not. Further more the victor cannot be declared by one of the participants in a case like this. To state you are winning is ludicrous and arrogant, nothing more. As for debate experience.. You're cute, deludedly incorrect, but cute.
    You don't know my debate experience, and the fact that board members here defend the kind of behavior that JFS and others have is kind of an indication of their lack of ability, because someone who knows how to debate would quickly figure out that there's nothing worth defending about it, and it's a position that can't be defended. Trying to defend a psycho nutjob like JFS is just.... ugh. It's like trying to argue that rocks are really condensed water. Furthermore, the debaters here constantly try to appeal to authorities or their MA experience which supposedly gives them leverage in any debate imaginable. "Hey, I've kicked someone in the head, so surely I know better than you." They also try to "factually disprove" things that are impossible to factually disprove. They constantly try to rationalize and justify behavior that would be considered extremely offensive and insane by any civil standards. And so on...

    What's probably the saddest aspect of this shitfest is that it has no reason to exist, and even though I try to explain the difference between a personal opinion and factual statement, it all gets ignored in order to continue the debate for no reason. Or maybe people just can't accept the fact that not everyone shares the same preferences as them.

    Here's the flaw. A 100% subjective personal preference is one founded on experience. Further more, when something is factually incorrect, being opinion is irrelevent. If I were to decide that in my opinion 2+2=87 I would be FACTUALLY wrong and all the arguing that it's my opinion in the world is meaningless. Now, we accept that some people find civility, manners, enlightenment what have you in the martial arts. We accept it because many of us have found it ourselves. What we ALSO accept is the simple truth that martial arts, in and of themselves, are arts designed to injure, maim and kill other human beings. Anything extra is just that, extra.. Something added to the mix by individuals. Now, if you want to PERSONALLY associate various morality with the martial arts, that's your choice. If you insist that everyone has to accept your opinion, you're out of your mind. If you state your opinion then admit that you aren't actually a martial artist, and a real martial artist can show factually that you are mistaken, then you are wrong.
    You're making **** too complicated because I've been trying to explain time and time again that I'm not presenting it as a fact or trying to enforce it on others. How would a "real martial artist" show me that I'm factually mistaken? That should be funny to see. I suppose I could go an show that you're factually wrong for using Firefox instead of Internet Explorer.

    To give a more clear example, I ask you to please share with me what your college degrees are focused in. Barring a degree if you could please state a topic of interest to which you have extensive and lengthy knowledge of (Say ten years minimum). From there I can try to phrase an analogy that will make more sense to you.
    Can't really think of anything.

    We are more than willing to accept that you feel there is great enlightenment and civility in martial arts. You refuse to accept that that is purely your take and that the core facts of martial arts have no morality attatched.
    I have not refused. I have tried to explain over and over again that it's purely my idea and no one else's, but people can't take a fucking hint. If this is how you're going to continue this, you might as well stop now because I'm just going to keep giving you the same answer.

    You like to associate certain manners with MA = Opinion
    Martial Arts by itself is purely about combat, any morality is something attatched by the individual = FACT.
    And I'm not disagreeing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr
    On a separate note. Plasma: I have read the thread which apparantly started this. While JFS does become legitemately insulting and antagonizing later on, he was not such to begin with. You stated that you had always thought MA were associated with certain behaviors. A belief which is factually incorrect regardless of your personal opinions on the matter. In response you had a single user make a JOKE response as opposed to simply explaining it to you. He deliberately made a completely over the top insult and attack... And he did it strictly to make a point that not all MAists are of a certain behavioral pattern. Then you chose to comment from a supposed moral high ground (read arrogance). You did this repeatedly with a more and more high handed approach. That of an adult speaking to a three year old throwing a tantrum. At THIS point, JFS decided to keep the approach he did and badger you some more..
    He was insulting from the start ("Look you fukwit Fin ... just eat **** ... okay?"), and I only spoke to him that way because that's how he apparently wanted it done. If you act like you're a child throwing a tantrum, you'll be treated like one. If you want to be addressed like a grownup, act like it. Really simple.

    This whole matter would have been avoided if you had responded to a tongue in cheek comment with anything other than conceit and arrogance. Thusly all of this debate does lay squarely on your lap when it comes to cause. Could JFS been more polite? Sure. But that does not change that it was you who initially took something too seriously and drug it overboard.

    Reminds me of the guy who spent three pages ragging on (Omega I think?) about bashing Cannadians..
    Ah, still desperately trying to shift blame. The whole matter would have been avoided if JFS hadn't gone on a tantrum, period. You claim that he was joking, but I have no way of knowing it, and his behavior clearly indicates that he's either insane or really childish. I can't see his expression or hear the tone of his voice, and how people respond to what you say depends on how well you know them. If some stranger suddenly says "you ******" it's different from your best friend saying it, because you know he's joking.
    Last edited by plasmagoat; 10/28/2005 4:51am at .
  10. MrMcFu is offline

    Badness will not be rewarded

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    Posted On:
    10/28/2005 4:26am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, you're still here.

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