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  1. GarageJudokaSS is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 1:18pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WCL, wasn't the Olympin Judoka brought up as a "What if?" If so, didn't nothing of the sort of what we're tlaking about occur with him?

    And personally, anyone who asks Rhadi Fergusson what color panties he's wearing is likely some kind of bad ass we can't afford to lose either!!

    But, we're basically looking at three incidents then, am I right? A BJJ brown belt (bummer), a coach that shrugged it off, and a 14 year old girl. I say we're running about even, and it's not something we need sweeping change for, and certainly not something a multi-page rant about prepubescent panties is going to solve.

    Yeah, I definitely support the "nicer to n00bs" approach, but I don't think I even got zinged for anything until my tenth post or so. I was already somebodies sig material by that point!! But it's not even a "nicer" thing we need... Just some common decency to folks. Let those that are thought an idiot open their mouths and prove it (suddenly, not getting anyone ragging on me until ten posts in doesn't sound so good...) before we pounce. All well and good.

    However, how many people, as a whole, steer away from forums as a whole as being "immature"? How many are going to blanket label any opinion differing from theirs as wrong or "trolling" anyway?

    Let's face it... Just being here takes a certain ammount of immaturity in the first place. You have to, deep down, enjoy arguing meaninglessly about stuff that doesn't really effect either yourself or the person you're arguing with, or worse yet, you have to actually let it effect you, which says something entirely else about maturity and such.

    The whole purpose of this place is to fight the small battles. Fighting them over panties jsut doesn't seem that rewarding.
  2. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 1:29pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To all you folks going on about how we need to clean up our act:

    1. How do we prevent the 15 year olds from making their oh so valuable contributions?

    2. While I think that many of you have good points, WCL, afronaut, Matt B, dakotajudo and FJ, I believe in forum Darwinism. If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. It would be very hard to enforce some of the suggestions made without eradicating the spirit of Bullshido, namely, free speech and the Bullshido trademark of "put up or shut up". Perhaps more emphasis on articles and research as well as their prominence on the site is a good first step. As I recall, Phrost was pushing for more article submission and exposure not too long ago.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  3. OZZ is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 1:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Short Fist Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Even though I am basically still a noob, I think I'll weigh in here with my opinion...
    It is true that too many threads degenerate into silly namecalling sessions..but alot of times it seems to be BECAUSE someone is full of BS in the first place. I have taken a couple of shots here and there, but big deal..I can handle it. I don't think I was treated rudely or unfairly when I first began posting here.
    The main problem, from what I have seen is (as has already been stated by a number of you) newbs starting stupid threads or starting forum wars with people over things that have been debated to death.
    I know that I was reading and watching this site for a while before I began posting here so I could get a feel for the crowd before jumping in head first.
    Perhaps other people should do the same.
    Last edited by OZZ; 8/16/2005 3:07pm at .
  4. Shirobake is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 2:18pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What I think

    This is not what happened to me, granted. I believe people come to this website expecting it to be like a company, i.e., proffesional. Noobs don't know alot of the time that what they are asking is considered "stupid", and flaming the crap out of them until they leave, and possibly end up asking someone like Ashida Kim, and falling into that whole mess, is just sad. Taking pot shots and people you know is one thing, and building your ego on hapless noobs is one thing. I am pretty sure asking a 14 year old girl about her panties is pretty close to illigal, and does say something about the character of some of these people. If it had been a cop pretending to be a 14 year old girl, I shudder to imagine the consequences. Another mistake people make is that they might *gasp* look at some of the profiles of people who they wish to ask a question of. Doing this, they would see a person is, for example, a teacher in the martial arts, possibly middle aged, and assume that by asking them a question as they would someone directly from a dojo or dojang, they can get a legitimate answer.

    I fully agree that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire. But we need to be careful who we throw into that fire. For example, I made the mistake once of arguing with a mod, and potentially risked getting my ass banned, which would not have been cool.

    So here's the thing. If ya see someone who is obviously a noob, asking a legitmate question, the best you can do is try to supress your inner teenage jackass, and answer to the best of your knowledge. Ribbing is for people you know, just to be on the safe side. :qright4:
  5. GarageJudokaSS is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 2:24pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shirobake
    This is not what happened to me, granted. I believe people come to this website expecting it to be like a company, i.e., proffesional. Noobs don't know alot of the time that what they are asking is considered "stupid", and flaming the crap out of them until they leave, and possibly end up asking someone like Ashida Kim, and falling into that whole mess, is just sad. Taking pot shots and people you know is one thing, and building your ego on hapless noobs is one thing. I am pretty sure asking a 14 year old girl about her panties is pretty close to illigal, and does say something about the character of some of these people. If it had been a cop pretending to be a 14 year old girl, I shudder to imagine the consequences. Another mistake people make is that they might *gasp* look at some of the profiles of people who they wish to ask a question of. Doing this, they would see a person is, for example, a teacher in the martial arts, possibly middle aged, and assume that by asking them a question as they would someone directly from a dojo or dojang, they can get a legitimate answer.

    I fully agree that if you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire. But we need to be careful who we throw into that fire. For example, I made the mistake once of arguing with a mod, and potentially risked getting my ass banned, which would not have been cool.

    So here's the thing. If ya see someone who is obviously a noob, asking a legitmate question, the best you can do is try to supress your inner teenage jackass, and answer to the best of your knowledge. Ribbing is for people you know, just to be on the safe side. :qright4:
    If you take a look at the post that was linked earlier on, it's not like the girl came out and said "Hi, I'm 14, rah bah bah..."

    She says she thought it was time to introduce herself, and that she just moved, and has a smilie done up like a hippie waving and stuff. The guy quotes it, and responds with "What color are your panties, and how long have you been wearing them?"(a gag on the "dirty hippie" thing), then says "Kidding, sorry".

    I think WAY too much is being made of some little girls panties here. We still don't even know if she WAS a little girl, or if the 40 year old guy trying to molest Johnny just came here to further his ruse.
  6. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 2:40pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    A professional fighter and coach (Strong Machine), a BJJ brown belt, and an Olympian Judo athlete were almost lost because of our proverbial rudeness against newbies.

    Sorry, the BJJ brown belt WAS actually lost.

    So no, this discussion is not pointless at all. I am not Phrost, but I would say this site cannot afford to lose qualified people such as those. And this site cannot also afford to alienate MA newbies who might be saved from Wing Chun and Ninjutsu with a bit of careful talk, at least at first.

    I am not telling anyone to shut up, and I do not think this place should be moderated MAP style. But I believe we could really improve this place if there was an effort to avoid attacking newbies, at least until those newbies have grown used to this site´s style.
    We have several different overlapping problems, we're rude to newbies, we allow threads to go off track, and moderating can be a very subjective. We receive on average, a couple reported posts a day mostly involving rudeness and trolling, and if we staff were more active we would have about 10 staff people umpiring these conflicts according to different standards.

    Let me give an example of my own bad behavior. Several months ago a adolecent between 14 to 16 came on the site to talk about radical ki (the outsider) and then he switched mid thread to talk about grand theft auto. I lost it and made some very choice comments about his stupidity.

    Perhaps what we could do is require people to disclose their real name and age to the bullshido staff, and if someone under 18 was derailing a thread or acting stupidly, we could specifically moderate that individual rather than verbally beating them into a pulp. I would probably double our workload and I don't know if we could keep up with the work load.

    Alternately we could have more sections like the history section where good behavior was enforced, or we could have certain threads in this section flagged as being more heavily moderated. Not all threads are equal and I do hate to see some of the more interesting ones ruined.

    Just my two cents.
  7. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 3:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gentlemen - specifically Matt, Dakotajudo, GarageJudoka, jnp, and Samuel Browning - I would like to make one fact clear.

    I am not in favour of additional moderation, at least not outside specific discussion forums marked as "serious discussion please" such as the history section (creating other areas like it may be a good idea, by the way).

    What I am talking about is, well, self policing. I do know from first hand experience that many newbies get by without a reaming, as long as they do not say anything stupid, do not put themselves up as specialists without offering proof, do not try to set themselves up in a moral or martial high horse, and do not create an introductory thread.

    I believe it is the duty of "well established members" (whatever that means this month) to enforce some minimum rules of behaviour regarding non stupid, non flaming newbies. That is all there is to it, really. I like this site, and I firmly believe any changes should be brought up by consensus, not heavy handed moderation.

    Those members could do that by flaming people who flame non stupid newbies or, much better, by stopping a flaming session by saying hi to the newbie, explaining a bit of the site moderation policy, and answering any questions the newbie may have. The other posters will just follow the example, and the newbie will see this site is not about bashing "people who don´t belong", but about freedom of speech.

    But I am afraid I have no idea on how to solve the thread deraling problem.
    Last edited by WingChun Lawyer; 8/16/2005 3:41pm at .
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  8. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 3:37pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wish there was a test. Like a writen test, or a cookie that proved you had a least loaded the newbite faq in your browser, brefore you could register. People asking questions answered ad nauseaum is a huge pet peeve of mine.

    Personally, I am not usually immediately mean to new people. But like I was saying in that thread with the Mind Flare dude, there's a point where what we are doing here leads to confrontation. As we get more and bigger sparring groups going around the counter, those lessons can be in person, but sometimes the have to come in the form of internet debate, as sad as that is. There's a point in a deprogramming where dissonance causes tempers to flare, and we can't compromise that aspect, or we turn into New Agers - if you've ever been around the new age community, you'll understand what I mean, they have a sort of consensus, unwritten, subconcious, and deeply ingrained, that goes, "Because we are both full of ****, I will not call your bullshit and you will not call mine. I think that is a good arrangement for us"

    We can't become that. We are the anti-that.
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 8/16/2005 3:39pm at .
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 3:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    People asking questions answered ad nauseaum is a huge pet peeve of mine.
    That is a crucial point. Annoying as it may be (and it can be very annoying), we must answer the same questions again and again. Yes, there are the newbie faqs, but those are huge threads, and not everyone will read everything.

    I really think we should cut the newbies some slack in that regard.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. GarageJudokaSS is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/16/2005 3:54pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    Gentlemen - specifically Matt, Dakotajudo, GarageJudoka, jnp, and Samuel Browning - I would like to make one fact clear.

    I am not in favour of additional moderation, at least not outside specific discussion forums marked as "serious discussion please" such as the history section (creating other areas like it may be a good idea, by the way).

    What I am talking about is, well, self policing. I do know from first hand experience that many newbies get by without a reaming, as long as they do not say anything stupid, do not put themselves up as specialists without offering proof, do not try to set themselves up in a moral or martial high horse, and do not create an introductory thread.

    I believe it is the duty of "well established members" (whatever that means this month) to enforce some minimum rules of behaviour regarding non stupid, non flaming newbies. That is all there is to it, really. I like this site, and I firmly believe any changes should be brought up by consensus, not heavy handed moderation.

    Those members could do that by flaming people who flame non stupid newbies or, much better, by stopping a flaming session by saying hi to the newbie, explaining a bit of the site moderation policy, and answering any questions the newbie may have. The other posters will just follow the example, and the newbie will see this site is not about bashing "people who don´t belong", but about freedom of speech.

    But I am afraid I have no idea on how to solve the thread deraling problem.
    Totally get you, and wasn't trying to coutnerpoint you, specifically so much as to point out that this thread has gone from "You guys picked on a 14 year old girl I got to post here!" to "We need sweeping forum reform!". You pointed out some situations (or potential ones) where we could (or did) have lost more than a 14 year old girl. I was just trying to maintain perspective that losing a member or two isn't enough to warrant burning out the mods, and that we can't really up recruitment without a major shift in board personality, which is only going to lose a great number of people already here.

    I jost don't think this issue is pressing enough to eat up this much space, outside of the concept of self-policing you mention. I mean, I know I for one seem to have come off as some kind of ranting asshole because of a discussion about Pride/UFC, in which I thought I was just calling for some more thought put into "picking a favorite" than just blanketly accusing one roster of being better because of steroids. Others may suffer from the same mistakes where they think they are somehow in the right posting in a certain manner, only to in fact be harming others. It's gonna be an individualist thing.

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