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  1. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 1:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PoleFighter
    Lawdog, we are in agreement then.
    :wav:
  2. GarageJudokaSS is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 2:17pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    Who was raving about it, Joe Rogan? You are correct, Grecco only allows upper body takedowns. I entered one Grecco Roman tournament when I was in high school and I got slaughtered. It's a very different game.

    Randy also has a considerable amount of freestyle experience. What you saw was Randy drawing on that experience, not his Grecco Roman experience. :waraya
    The trips/sweeps are legal there, then, in wrestling as in Judo... I thought as much (I remember doing something resembling ouchi gari in wrestling, but thought I was being clever. This was Junior High, and we only competed within the school, as no area schools had teams). Well, while I totally botched the Grecco/Judo comparison, I can comfortably stand by the similarities in technique in Judo and Wrestling at least. I've seen a classic double score ippon, and I've seen plenty of hip throws score in wrestling (the guy went down with it, of course, but who here doesn't go down with their victim in Judo competition?). I think this whole thing can be safely attributed to what Dakota had mentioned some time back about refs in Judo being sub par, and the state and below tourneys sorta doing their own thing.
  3. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 2:34pm

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GarageJudokaSS
    I can comfortably stand by the similarities in technique in Judo and Wrestling at least. I've seen a classic double score ippon, and I've seen plenty of hip throws score in wrestling (the guy went down with it, of course, but who here doesn't go down with their victim in Judo competition?). I think this whole thing can be safely attributed to what Dakota had mentioned some time back about refs in Judo being sub par, and the state and below tourneys sorta doing their own thing.
    I totally agree on both points. :thumbsup:
  4. wakinonioi is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 3:03pm


     Style: Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris
    Never. They'll put someone in in hopes that they'll lose by points instead of pinfall or even pull off a lucky win.

    Not always. A coach will sometimes avoid having some fish take a beating just to take a beating if the result is ridiculously obvious. And sometimes a coach will make a last minute change in the line up that leaves something else open. A lot of calculations involved.
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  5. dakotajudo is offline
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    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 8:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wakinonioi
    Not always. A coach will sometimes avoid having some fish take a beating just to take a beating if the result is ridiculously obvious. And sometimes a coach will make a last minute change in the line up that leaves something else open. A lot of calculations involved.
    Exactly.

    Sometimes you give up a few points in a mid-season dual, if it means you keep a kid around who may help at the end of the season.

    Up here, there's a lot of small schools fielding wrestling teams, and sometimes they're lucky to field a full squad. Some kids are one the bubble, and after a humilating beating they just might quit. Sometimes you let a kid avoid a beating one meet, so he'll be back next season.

    My arguments about the importance of novice divisions have been related to this - from a coaching and athlete development perspective. I've tried to be clear what I would do for myself, and what I would have others do.

    I've been involved with teams that had a lot of self-motivated athletes, and some with a few head cases. It strikes me that some (most?) of the people posting here are self-motivated. As a coach, that's a great thing - you can just sit back and bask in the glory.

    But I've also seen cases where athletes, who were physically gifter but emotionally unprepared, were started out a low level; a level that allowed them to build confidence a florish at a higher level. And not just at a high school level.

    Different athletes develop at different rates - some are prepared physically well before they are prepared mentally. And in the interests of athlete development, I think there should be different levels that allow athletes to mature at their own rate.

    It works the other way - this whole debate is somewhat a case in point. If you put someone against competition well below their level, they may get discouraged by the lack of competition in that sport, and you lose them, too.

    So, I think it best that there be levels of competition, and that people are matched, as best as they can. But that's the sticking point - how do you match competitors you know nothing about (as open tournament directors must do)?

    Some sports, it's simply by age groups - others have specific levels (like Sweden's soccer clubs' or here, it's A,B,C or D divisions in softball).

    Unfortunately, in judo all we really have is rank - which, when you have experienced people from other styles come in, just isn't sufficient. That's were having a coach around, to go bug the tournament director while you focus on getting ready for your matches, helps.

    That's what I try to do as a coach - I try to help the directors ensure a well-competed event. In almost all cases, when I've thought my athlete had a too-easy division, I've got him bumped. When one of my students in out-matched, I'm more likely to do what I can to prepare him mentally. Maybe I'm forcing my own philosophy on students, but I'm more concerned about having a good tournament, regardless of win or loss.

    A lot of time, at tournaments around here, the directors will line up all competitors, announce the names for each division, ask competitors to stand up when their names are announed, and take a look to see if the divisions look fair (and ask that coaches check for themselves).

    Really, that's what most tournament directors I know are concerned with - good competion, nobody gets hurt. There may be some who worry about style-vs-style, but I don't really know of any.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    The purpose is more about a feeder system than an equal playing field.
    That may be the difference between us in this debate - I consider the novice division to be a feeder system (or at least, that's how it should be used).

    Quote Originally Posted by GarageJudokaSS
    I'm talking about BJJ and wrestlers that signed up that day at the tourneys.
    If they don't know that they can move up to a higher division; and the tournament director doesn't know that he's put experienced grapplers in the novice division - that's a lack of communication; it's not indicative of the sport as a whole. Maybe the tournament directors need to do a better job of communicating to entrants their options; perhaps it's something you could discuss with the directors.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarageJudokaSS
    I can comfortably stand by the similarities in technique in Judo and Wrestling at least.
    I don't disagree with similarities - but there are also important distinctions, especially as to how a technique is finished, that should be made. There are certainly a lot of techniques that you can start the same way, whether judo or wrestling, but they can't be finished the same way; you've got to make sure you finish according to the rules of the competition.

    That can be true for anyone crossing styles - I seem to remember that Cael Sanderson ran into a bit of difficulty in one of his Olympic matches - something to the effect that he finished a takedown in a folkstyle manner, that allowed his competitor to gain exposure points while being taken down (something that doesn't happen in folkstyle). I think he made a comment about it in a later interview.

    That's the kind of distinction I was trying to make.
  6. GarageJudokaSS is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2005 10:18pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I get ya... I was just sort of affirming (to myself mostly) that I hadn't totally taken a verbal crap in the thread when I'd made that post earlier about similarities. I was starting to think "****, they really did us a disservice when I wrestled... I have no idea what I'm talking about!!" It was nice to know that, aside from my obvious boner on the Grecco thing, I was in the ballpark.

    You seem a stickler for the letter of the law, Dakota, and I can respect that. I also note that your'e a realist, and so you have seen that the "Ippon-that-wasn't" and such often scores, and so on and so forth.

    My only other input to this now is that, at least in my experience, when the folks have signed up to compete, they've pretty much been told "You'll be entered as a white belt, but we'll be having an open division, once we figure out the other brackets. You can enter a second division, but it's $x more."

    So, maybe you could say "Enter me in the sankyu and above division as well as the sank and below" or something. Couldn't hurt to ask.
  7. lawdog is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    8/15/2005 8:59am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    I've been involved with teams that had a lot of self-motivated athletes, and some with a few head cases. It strikes me that some (most?) of the people posting here are self-motivated. As a coach, that's a great thing - you can just sit back and bask in the glory.

    But I've also seen cases where athletes, who were physically gifter but emotionally unprepared, were started out a low level; a level that allowed them to build confidence a florish at a higher level. And not just at a high school level.

    Different athletes develop at different rates - some are prepared physically well before they are prepared mentally. And in the interests of athlete development, I think there should be different levels that allow athletes to mature at their own rate.

    It works the other way - this whole debate is somewhat a case in point. If you put someone against competition well below their level, they may get discouraged by the lack of competition in that sport, and you lose them, too.
    Excellent insight and analysis. :5thanks:
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