8/09/2005 10:38am, #1
Judo –cutting off its own nose to spite its face?
I haven’t competed in Judo for several years (I was a novice and impressively crap at it before anyone asks), so I might be behind the tide here. But I’ve read the Judo/BJJ thread with interest. I recently talked to some disillusioned Judoka who have taken issue with the ever more limiting rules of the sport. It seems that Judo’s current rules ethos has more to do with deterring Sombo and BJJ guys from competing in it (and being successful) than the fighting relevance of the activity. Rule enforcements limiting grips and scoring ippon against someone who throws guard etc.
Is Judo in danger of disappearing up its own arse?
I truly hope not because it is a great system which up until now has a lot of fighting relevance. What do you think the future holds?You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM
just die already.Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM
Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
8/09/2005 10:56am, #2
I found this to be true. Instead of embracing the inevitable changes they have decided to circle the wagons.
Jumping guard has been an auto-Ippon for a while. But the grip limitations are really killing the sport. I love the non-combativity penalties. But some of the crap is just lame.
I remember my last Judo competition. I think it was 1997(?), I got a BEAUTIFUL tani otoshi on this guy. IPPON! I was like...sweet. The judge awards the other guy the victory. I was like WTF?!?! Even my opponent was arguing that the judge got it wrong. The other guy didn't even try a throw. I came in with a couple of attempts, and then sat back for the Tani.
The judges reasoning? Because I touched my back on the mat before my opponent he got the Ippon. I was like WTF AGAIN?!?! Ever heard of sacrifice throws?
Later I heard they were cracking down on wrestlers and BJJ guys who had been spiking the tournaments so they decided to 'punish' anyone who looked like one of them. Considering I had won a previous match with a pin, and my first with a choke I think they decided I was one of them.
I wasn't. But they made me one with that shitty call and punitive punishments.
Just reading this thread makes me want to go enter a Judo competition and sub everyone with an armlock.
8/09/2005 10:58am, #3
I had always assumed that the rules limitations had to do with the fact that Olympic and competition judo was more concerned with throws for ippon than any other way of accumulating points. Further, that this was a unique Japanese way of looking at competition (fully committed, balls out, one strike one kill, etc.) And this Japanese ethos is what sets the tone for the rules.
Is Rhandi still around? He'd be the person to talk to.I dork harder than any of you can imagine.
8/09/2005 11:14am, #4
Note: I'm not a qualified enough judoka to comment on all of this from personal experience. This post is mostly a synthesis of comments and criticisms made by other judoka as regards the status quo with my reading of the rules and a little gloss of my opinions added on top.
There's some piss-poor refereeing around, as any judoka will tell you, and yes, some of the changes over the years have been definitely been to prevent the sambo threat. The unorthodox grip rules have been round a while IIRC however, and as long as you attack within five seconds or so most of the grips are legal according to the rules (individual referees may interpret this in weird ways). The pulling guard being awarded as ippon thing is IMO perhaps more related to ippon being watered down by referees. The rules still state that an ippon throw should feature the opponent landing on his back with force, speed and control; in practice, force and speed no greater than someone falling under their own weight without added acceleration can score ippon, and ippons are sometimes given against the thrower for sacrifice throws in which the opponent's control was minimal or non-existent. Now if a fluffed tomoenage can end with points against you, then pulling guard is not going to fare any better.
Time spent in ne-waza is another frequent bone of contention, with "no apparent progress" having a wide range of meanings depending on the referee. I believe as of a few years ago some of the higher-up referees were very cold to ne-waza and the trickle effect damaged ne-waza right down to the lower levels; if what I'm told is to be believed, this trend has been fortunately reversed in more recent times.
To sum up this slightly long-winded post: most of the rules are still okay, though the gripping ones smack slightly of defensiveness vs sambo players; however, refereeing is highly variable and many referees interpret the rules in strange, stilted ways. Some places will be better than others.
8/09/2005 11:21am, #5
I haven't competed since the new rules went into effect in 2003, but I've read them and I don't see any significant changes to support your theory. It's been a while though, so I may have missed something. It sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory to me though, but I can't really say as I'm not involved in competition right now.
My guess however, is that if what you say is true, it has more to do with the discretion of the judges rather than the official rule set. Like Yrkoon9 pointed out, the judges may be abusing their discretion based on some agenda of the IJF.
I do remember some talk back in the 80's of Sombo having an effect on the rule changes at that time due to the success of the Soviets. I have no idea whether that was legitimate or not as I was too young to really care much about the politics of the IJF.
What specific rules do you think were changed in order to penalize BJJ and/or Sombo?
I've also heard judoka bitch about the failure of BJJ to award an ippon for a perfect throw, and some believe this is an attempt to keep judoka from dominating BJJ competitions. I personally don't believe that, but some do.
Ultimately, while being very similar, they are different sports with different rule sets and I would hope that they would both evolve independently of each other.
8/09/2005 11:26am, #6
Where did the practice of standing people up quikcly come from? That's an old saw in judo ("Nice armbar. Yeah, but if this were shiai they'd have stood us up 30 seconds ago.") but I don't know why that is.I dork harder than any of you can imagine.
8/09/2005 11:27am, #7
Yes, the other side of the fence are people like Rorion and his IGJJF tournament that don't want points given for throws and takedowns. This year they are only awarding 1pt for throws.
IMHO BJJ needs to add a point for throws because they are such an integral part of the grappling game. Being able to take your opponent down and rewarding those who actively do so instead of pulling guard should change. Change the points from 2 to 3 for a takedown.
Some sort of compromise between the two needs to happen soon. Add more newaza for Judo, add more throws to BJJ.
8/09/2005 11:43am, #8
8/09/2005 11:47am, #9
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
- east coast
One of the big problems with shiai are the refs themselves (especially at a local level, local meaning up to state championship level) - they're all judoka, mostly former competitors and present instructors, and because of a certain crustiness/stubbornness that seems to come with age, their opinions of what judo should be overrides any sense of impartiality so if you don't play their style of judo, you're screwed. Also, there are some old refs out there(read way too old) who just seem to shut down after judging a few matches. I've seen blatantly illegal techniques not result in hansoku make(dq) which led to bad injuries in the same match and it was the refs' faults for not calling them. Many just wear their ties and jackets and socks and forget that they're there to do an impartial job and not just look important/dignified on the tatami.
8/09/2005 11:56am, #10
- Join Date
- May 2005
- Within view of the flagpole...
- BJJ, Kickboxing, Judo
The newest change, and one I brought up in that aforementioned thread was the armbar rule I was informed of. It came out on the local fliers for some tourneys, and there's talk of it being implemented at states this year. NO armbars/locks for Sankyu and below divisions. I've heard that it was because of "insurance reasons" for the Beltsville tournament, but I watched the whole tournament and competed in two divisions, and there was ONE minor arm injury when a BLACK BELT tried to roll the wrong way out of a lock. What there was a lot more of was guys form local BJJ places showing up, registering and competing in the Sankyu and Below divisions (because they were listed as white belts), and cleaning up with armbars and triangles. It soured me on the school I was at at the time (Yrkoon, I think you witnessed the blow up when I mentioned this on Sherdog's grappling forum) as I was the only competitor from my school to leave with a trophy, and all my wins were by sub. All four other guys from the club took second or lower after getting tapped. We got back to class the following Tuesday, and as if they'd been at a totally different tourney, the instructors were like "I saw a lot of people getting thrown with this, or pinned with that... Let's drill that stuff, that's the biggest thing right now."
How about we drill "standing up when in an armbar is worthless if the guy hooks your leg with his arm", or something else that actually occured at the tourney?
I hope that rule doesn't spread beyond the local and regional levels, as it'll just be another blow to the sport and the art of Judo. The pattern for most competitive clubs is to focus on the high percentage throws to the loss of everything else, cause that's the easiest path to victory. You know once you can't armbar until brown belt that they won't TEACH it until then, and then it's too late.