[Fantasy Warrior]

Aliveness: A threat to Tae Kwon Do?

-{EDIT: EXPANDED FOR CLARITY OF ARGUMENT}-


TKD is known for its impressive and often flamboyant kicking repertoire. Boxing is for punching, Silat for blades, Judo for throws, Muay Thai for elbows and knees and Tae Kwon Do for kicking. It is part of Tae Kwon Do’s identity, what gives it a perceived niche.

Cynics have suggested that when Tae Kwon Do was created in the fifties, the powers that were sort something to make it different from Karate. With the kicking emphasis of TaekKyon in mind, they carved out an identity that aimed to give it a Korean feel; lots of kicking. That account is of course controversial and open to debate.

In many ways Tae Kwon Do’s culture has developed to place a great deal of emphasis on kicking, whether in the WTF guise or the ITF branding (et al).

The semi-contact Tae Kwon Do is inherently not Alive; the pulled punches and stop-start flow are abstract and dead. It can be argued that WTF rules are more Alive because they are full-contact (albeit with padding).

On a related point that goes hand in hand with Aliveness, the rules in competition, which in my experience are generally mirrored in sparring, encourage kicking and discourage punching and grappling:
1. Catching kicks is a foul
2. Clinching is not allowed
3. The groin is not a legal target (this is common sense but at the same time, it makes committing to kicks less risky)
4. Grappling and groundfighting is not permitted
5. Boxing type tactics (punching the face lots) are not allowed, either by making the face an illegal target (WTF) or by a point-stop system whereby follow-ups are not allowed and at any rate punches are pulled (ITF et al).
6. Knees and low kicks are not allowed
This shapes Tae Kwon Do and can distort the practitioner’s viewpoint of the effectiveness of kicking as a strategy because they are not adequately exposed to the pitfalls of such a tactical approach.

However, there are workable rule formats which undo some or all of those limitations, grouped generally as “kickboxing” and “MMA”.

So how would the typical techniques/strategies of Tae Kwon Do change if these limitations were removed –would the fighters still use kicks as they currently do. Since every move allowed in TKD sparring/comp is allowed in MMA, we can reasonably suggest that kicking would play a far lesser role:
1. High kicks would be far rarer, particularly hook kicks and sidekicks which are seen extremely rarely when kick catching/grappling is allowed.
2. Low kicks, particularly “Thai” roundkicks to the legs would become the most popular kicks. (This is generally thought of as the safest kick to throw within the MMA community)
3. Face punches would exceed kicks in terms of frequency
4. Double kicks (same leg) and other kicks which are not often very powerful would be less frequent (the scoring system of semi-contact points encourages them, whereas if full contact is allowed, they become less relevant)
5. Fighters would tend to start further away and close more readily so that “kicking range” would not be fought at in the way it is in contemporary Tae Kwon Do.
6. People would seek instruction in other styles, particularly for punching, kneeing, grappling etc.

So the resulting activity would loose the identifying feature of Tae Kwon Do (the kicks) and be hard to differentiate from MMA.

I believe that this is the reason that the upper echelons of the big Tae Kwon Do organizations do not promote Alive training or reduced-rules training within their organizations. This is why they sponsor WTF or Semi-contact Points sparring competitions and do not go down the MMA road. They put 1/3-step drills in their grading syllabus, but not pressure testing. If they encouraged Aliveness in their clubs then people would be forced to accept the comparatively small part that kicking plays in few-rules fighting, and indeed in self-defence (Aliveness is equally applicable in that arena). Aliveness is a threat to the status quo in Tae Kwon Do. I’m a poet and I didn’t know it.

Consequently the big organizations will not instigate or encourage movement towards Alive training in Tae Kwon Do.

Do you agree?

[PO9]

Maybe, what's in it for me?

[Kengou]

I partially agree. I agree that the strategies for TKD style sparring and for full-contact fights are different, and the TKD ruleset is very limiting compared to MMA. It seems to me, though, that you are implying that any martial art, when used in an MMA environment, would be basically the same. I don't know if I agree with that.

[Fantasy Warrior]

Originally Posted by Kengou

It seems to me, though, that you are implying that any martial art, when used in an MMA environment, would be basically the same. I don't know if I agree with that.

Yes, I think it would, in general terms. MMA is how it is because of the (lack of) rules. Within any environment, successful methodologies are those that fit that environment. with MMA, the rules kinda came before the destinct 'style' (cough) which is why MMA is how it is. With TKd I'd wager that the emphasis on kicking came before the contemporary sport TKD rules, so in effect the rules were designed to suit the "style".

[Animosimony]

Originally Posted by Kengou

I partially agree. I agree that the strategies for TKD style sparring and for full-contact fights are different, and the TKD ruleset is very limiting compared to MMA. It seems to me, though, that you are implying that any martial art, when used in an MMA environment, would be basically the same. I don't know if I agree with that.

It would only be basically the same if it was effective.

[SYB]

Originally Posted by kickcatcher

So how would the typical techniques/strategies of Tae Kwon Do change if these limitations were removed –would the fighters still use kicks as they currently do. Since every move allowed in TKD sparring/comp is allowed in MMA, we can reasonably suggest that kicking would play a far lesser role:
1. High kicks would be far rarer, particularly hook kicks and sidekicks which are seen extremely rarely when kick catching/grappling is allowed.
2. Low kicks, particularly “Thai” roundkicks to the legs would become the most popular kicks. (This is generally thought of as the safest kick to throw within the MMA community)
3. Face punches would exceed kicks in terms of frequency
4. Double kicks (same leg) and other kicks which are not often very powerful would be less frequent (the scoring system of semi-contact points encourages them, whereas if full contact is allowed, they become less relevant)
5. Fighters would tend to start further away and close more readily so that “kicking range” would not be fought at in the way it is in contemporary Tae Kwon Do.
6. People would seek instruction in other styles, particularly for punching, kneeing, grappling etc.

So the resulting activity would loose the identifying feature of Tae Kwon Do (the kicks) and be hard to differentiate from MMA.

I really don't see the point of this thread. "What if there was aliveness in TKD." Why do you need a what if? TKD evolved into a competitive sport, has rules, and people train to win according to those rules. Yes, there are plenty of retards that believe that their sport training in TKD is deadly or whatever bullshido crap is going on in TKD.

That doesn't mean that originally, the TKD guys didn't train with aliveness or that there aren't people that still practice TKD as a combat art.

At my school, we have TKD classes, but they aren't part of WTF, or ITF, or any of those federations. We don't train to compete in any TKD competitions either. We train to fight. We do full contact sparing, we keep 90% of our kicks to low front kicks or sweep kicks. We don't do crazy show off kicks. We do a lot of punching as well as kicking. We work heavy weight bags and do full contact sparring. We don't have any rules (although we do exercise restraint as to not inflict long term injuries... not that these never happen).

I would also like to add that my instructor was present during that whole deal with the kwans came together in Korea in the 50s to form TKD, and they trained together. My instructor got KOed by Mr. Lee (Chung Do Kwan).

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that you don't need a "what if" there was aliveness in TKD because it originally was part of the training and there still are schools that train like this.

[Poop Loops]

My TKD training was definately alive. It's fault was that it had crappy rules, not that it was static.

PL

[PO9]

My first TKD lesson, my instructor taught me the front stance, reverse punch, horse stance, front kick, and the basic blocks. Then we put on pads and I proceeded to learn how to use such techniques in an alive fashion.

[Cassius]

What you have here is a question of whether the rules dictated the evolution of the style or whether the most successful styles dictated the evolution. Sub Grappling/BJJ/Whatever obviously changed everyone's game. To be good at MMA you have to at least be able to defend yourself from being taken down and be able to fight on the ground.

While I personally think that the overall style exhibited by MMA will not go through any major revolutions for a good while, I do think we'll start to see influences from other styles become more common, such as Bonnar's kicks. I see techniques from other martial arts being integrated as "surprise manuvers." The more advanced a technique, the less useful it tends to be.

As far as your post goes, I tend to agree that TKD will probably stay the way it is. It is probably too profitable to change to hard contact with the regularity you see in MMA/Muay Thai/Boxing/etc.

WARNING: OFF TOPIC!!!!

Actually, I think a more interesting question than this (not that this needs to be a thread hijack, just food for thought) relating to MMA is whether fighters that train specifically for MMA from the start will surpass fighters that started in one or two specific styles (Muay thai and BJJ, or Boxing and Judo, etc) and then began training for MMA once they had a solid base.

[Cassius]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Whether or not TKD's tactics are good, they can not be employed if you can't defend against your opponents tactics, which is the mosy blatant hole in TKD.

This can be said for an asston of martial arts, but is worth saying until it is pounded into all of our heads.