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  1. Bang! is offline
    Bang!'s Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Apr 2003
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    3,242

    Posted On:
    6/07/2008 9:45am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    say two hours a week. And you could train eight hours a day. It depends how many -- the years don't mean anything as how many hours a year does a person really practice. If a person says he practices like this man 15 years it doesn't mean anything. But if he practices two years and puts several thousand hours into that that means something. Q I am not trying to attack you. I am simply trying to find out information, A Okay, okay. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, really I am trying very hard to be patient. And I don't want to object, SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta and I don't want to interfere, but there is a limit to what you are entitled to in terms of his background. If you were giving evidence here I wouldn't be entitled to know how many math grades you got in Grade 1. MR. GROH; The relationship between Mr. Simon and Mr. Shergold was a relationship based on Kung Fu. And that is why I am exploring this and why I submit I am entitled to explore it. Mr. Shergold came into contact with Mr. Simon through the Temple Rung Fu studios, and I submit that is why I am entitled to do this. MR. OSHRYs Well, I am not going to let you ask any more questions about what happened in 1960 and 1970. I mean there is a limit to what you are entitled to, and these questions are not related to the relationship between the parties. MR. GROHs I submit they are, but we will have to argue that in the proper forum if that is what you want. When the Calgary studio was opened, the Calgary Karate studio in about 1961 did Ms. Hilbig teach at that studio? Well, I can't qualify that right on because she was a beginner there;, and eventually he -- he taught -- like everybody they start out as a beginner. I had -- I ran the class. I was the instructor there. And then she became I don't know how many years later three SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 27 years later she became an instructor I would think. Q I understand that after the Edmonton studio was opened in 1964 Ms. Hilbig travelled back and forth between Edmonton and Calgary and taught at the Edmonton studio? MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, that has got nothing whatsoever to do even with the matters you just mentioned a few minutes ago. MR, GROH; I submit it does, MR. OSHRYs Well, you can submit as long as you like,, but I am going to instruct the witness not to answer the question, I don't want to be obstruc- tivey but there is a limit to what you can ask. Why don't we deal with the issues? MR. GROH; In my view I am dealing with the issues. You may not appreciate the methodology that I am employing;, but I submit that I am. MR. OSHRY; How many times a week or a day one Margaret Hilbig travelled up and down from Edmonton to Calgary for the life of me has got nothing to do with this lawsuit. MR. GROHs I didn't ask anything like that. A She didn't,, sir. Q Okay, in 1968 did Ms. Hilbig move to Edmonton and teach at the Edmonton studio and manage the Edmonton studio? A She went -- you know, I assume that you have the SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 28 correct date. You have maybe better information than I have. Eventually she did. But prior to that she never did travel. There was no call for it. On occasion she would once come along, that is quite well possible, but not regularly. Q And Ms. Hilbig managed the Edmonton studio until approximately 1972, correct? A Well, manage is -- yeah. Q Yes? A I would think so. You call it managing, yes, yeah, running it. Q Do you recall in 1963 saying to Margie Hilbig something to the effect that since you wrote a lot of poetry if you put a Dr. in front of your name did she think anyone would check up on you? MR. OSHRY; Don't answer that question. What you said in 1963 to Margaret Hilbig has got nothing to do with this lawsuit. Please don't answer the question. MR. GROH; I'm sorry, I submit it does. MR. OSHRYs Well, you can submit as much as you like, Mr. Groh. I am objecting to the question as being not relevant. A It is not true, sir. MR. GROH; Well, can I take that as an answer to that? MR. OSHRY; No. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 29 MR. GROH; Do I still have to make an application? MR, OSHRY: Yes. MR. GROHs All right. MR. OSHRY; Can we just go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Q MRo GROH; Now/ Mr. Simon,, you were involved in a company by the name of Veritas International,, correct? A The Edmonton.? Q Veritas is the one that you sold to Richard Shergold that operated two Edmonton studios? A There was one in Edmonton. I was involved in that, yes. Q Do you know if you were 50 percent shareholder in that company? A I don't know. We were involved in -- I think they are all the same. They are organized all the same way, aren't they? Q I am concerned about a company that operated the Temple Rung Fu studios in Edmonton before November of 1988, and I understand that to be Veritas. Does that sound correct to you? A It sounds correct,, but I can't really guarantee whether -- the date was? Q Before November of 1988. That is when all of the studios were sold to four people including Richard SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 30 Shergold. A It is very uncomplicated to me, but I just have a block, mental block. I don't understand something you are trying to tell. We sold -- there were a group of companies we sold, but I can't identify who or what, We sold all we had. Q I will come back to that later. Now, you were also involved in the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Mm, h' mm. Q Your answer is yes? A Yes, sir. Q And you are within that Temple referred to as His Holiness the Dalais Seng Shi? A Seng Shi. Q S-H-I? A Yes, sir. Q Is there a translation of that into English that you can give me? A Welly there is no word holiness in Chinese/ but the philosophy, the great ocean or something, the great white ocean or this sort of thing I would think, yeah. Q You set up or began the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple, is that correct? A Correct, yes, sir. Q Can you tell me what the words Neo Ch'an mean as adjectives of Buddhist Temple? A Well, Neo is Latin for new and Ch'an is Zen. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 31 Q Is this different than classical Buddhism? A Yes. Q Can you tell me quickly in what way? A Well, we believe in God, and the other previously there is no relationship to God, and the secondary is that it is a nondenominational is the word that a person can be a member of the Temple without severing the ties to his original whatever he has. It can remain intact or not, whatever they choose. Q Are there any other differences from classical Buddhism? A Yeah, well, we don't believe in Buddha Gautama for actually who coined the word Buddhism. We rather choose the word Buddhism as enlightenment, education, or knowledge. We don't celebrate actually the man because we believe that any man seeking enlightenment forfeits his family life. He deserts his family. And therefore I didn't see the wisdom or the purpose of how what you say setting example doing that. The original was built on that, on that individual. So we differ in that outlook. They also believe in the outlook of being very poor, and I can't understand that either. I believe from nothing comes nothing. The creativity of man, the more creative a person is the closer he is to God in my opinion. And this is -- these are totally my own thoughts which I have put in sort of a sequence and put it into a little booklet. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 32 Q And the booklet you are talking about? A Is the black one you have. Q I have a brown one. A I call it blacky sir. Q But let me show you our Document No. 1 which is a brown covered book? A Is it brown? Q Is that the one you are talking about? A Black, but it has nothing to do with the Nazi party. Q Is that the book you are talking? A Yeah, this is the one. I call it black. Q Why did you say it has nothing to do with the Nazi party? A Well, I hate -- anything brown I don't like. Q Also our Document No. 2 is that also a book that you have prepared in respect of the philosophy of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Yeah,. that is I would suggest a follow-up. If I can ask my wife? I think that is the follow-up on it, is it? MRS. SIMON; Yes. A Yeah. Q MR. GRQH; Now, are the points that you have just talked about as being the philosophy of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple, does that philosophy form the foundation for the code of ethics and the code of behavior for the Temple Rung Fu system? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 33 A I would say yes. But it still ties in in the certain examples the ancient Buddhists set. There is a wide variety, and you and I would get lost in the 23, 000 books the Buddhists wrote on ethics. There are 23,000 issues. The older intellectualisation bothered me because after a while it wasn't decipherable any longer, so I didn't want to have too much to do with that, Q My question was solely directed to whether the philosophy which you have told me about the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple is also the philosophy that underlies the code of ethics and the code of behavior of the Temple K-ung Fu system, is that correct? A I think that is quite important. For me it was important because I wanted to give the art a temple where it came from simply because there was such a disorganization out in the martial art. It was impossible to unite them. Anybody could call himself anything which was all right because at one time the old masters had no masters to promote them, but finally entering the civilized age of 2,000 years later it was still chaos out there. Q Is your answer yes? A Yes. Q Thank you. The title His Holiness the Dalais Seng Shi is that a title that has been conferred on you by someone? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 34 A Assumed title, how do you say, totally self-invented, sir. Q Thank you for your candor. A For certain reasons if you want me to go into that. Q If you feel that is germane to this please do. A Welly the Buddhist compared to the Christians and especially North America where I feel less privileged, and it was difficult for them to -- they didn't have the courage to actually match that image with let's say the Pope. The Pope, they call the Pope His Holiness, and nobody else -- the Dalai Lama finally I think they afford him the courtesy that you call him His Holiness. But the question is who is more holy, the man who has 800 million people or a man who has only 200 members, so I would then submit that the Pope is 800 million times more holy than I am. Q I'm sorry, I didn't understand that, sir. Could you run that by me again? A Well, if holiness depends on numbers, and if you talk to me and compare me to the religious leader the Pope my subscribed members are maybe 200, 300» And the Pope has 800 million. So he is 800 million times more holy than I am. Q Is that a philosophy you subscribe to? A Well, a comparison. Q A comparison with what? A To this concept of holiness which exists in the SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 35 general public. MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, he is just trying to give you an explanation which you asked for why he thought the name was used. MR. GROH; I don't understand the explanation. A I can't help you very much there. Q What I understood you to tell me was that you assumed the name that included the phrase His Holiness and that you had a good reason for doing that. And you were going to tell me what that reason was, and what I have heard you to tell me is that if the Pope has 800 thousand followers he is more holy than someone who has 200 followers, so I don't understand the connection. A It is very simple. Psychologically I mean the Buddhists were not recognized in that sense in a Christian civilization because they would not call themselves holy over in China so the word holiness here then in order to give them the same value or respect or meaning that is why I introduced it because it seems to be unfair in my opinion. Q I see. Does it deal with credibility as a religious leader, is that what you are talking about? A Welly maybe that. You could say that, yes. Q So you are saying that is why you used it, is that correct? A I didn't use it. I had to establish protocol. If you SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 36 start a temple and you have a philosophy and you want to set an example you set an outline in order to do that so it can be done properly and follow it. Q And you do whatever you feel is necessary to gain the credibility that you think you need, is that a fair comment? A Welly I don't really know what you are saying now. But if you form anything you got to start having a system of concept by which people can relate to what you are doing. Q Now/ do all students or do any students who join Temple Kung Fu to study Kung Fu do they become members of the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple? A Welly sir, they can. Q It is a choice? A We., how would I say, we are not really successful in that we don't have campaign managers or people or missionaries or this sort of thing. And I wish we would have more time to organize ourselves better for the Temple. We were the last about eight years deprived of doing that. Q But I take it that some students do become members of the Temple, correct? A I would say, oh, yeah, a number of them, yes. Q Are students encouraged to become members of the Temple? A Not that I know. The philosophy is actually that we SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 37 do not allow missionaries for the simple reason I don't like the missionary concept because if I -- if somebody converts from one way -- from one religion to another if I do it -- if they do it themselves that is different, but if I do it then I see that a person by my input changes his religion and leaves one for the other which I dislike. I think the interference of my person is not really -- or any one person is -- should -- should be the motivating part. I am not against it, but I don't like -- somebody exchanges loyalties like this I don't like them to come to us and exchange loyalties. I like them to be rather connected to where they are. And in due time if they feel we are better then they can go -- I basically do not believe that we have a much better religion than anybody else. We are most likely the worst there is in my opinion. We have no such ambition to be better than anybody. We just want to be pure as best as we know how to do that. Q If you would look at your Document No. 4, please. What this is, sir, is this is an application for membership in the Neo Ch''an Buddhist Temple, and it appears to be an application by Richard Shergold. Maybe you can just take a moment and look at that. A I see his name on it. MR. OSHRYs It is just the one page. A Okay. Ever had a criminal record. I see no. That is SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 37 do not allow missionaries for the simple reason I don't like the missionary concept because if I -- if somebody converts from one way -- from one religion to another if I do it -- if they do it themselves that is different, but if I do it then I see that a person by my input changes his religion and leaves one for the other which I dislike. I think the interference of my person is not really -- or any one person is -- should -- should be the motivating part. I am not against it, but I don't like -- somebody exchanges loyalties like this I don't like them to come to us and exchange loyalties. I like them to be rather connected to where they are. And in due time if they feel we are better then they can go -- I basically do not believe that we have a much better religion than anybody else. We are most likely the worst there is in my opinion. We have no such ambition to be better than anybody. We just want to be pure as best as we know how to do that. Q If you would look at your Document No. 4, please. What this is, sir, is this is
  2. Bang! is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2008 9:45am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    an application for membership in the Neo Ch''an Buddhist Temple, and it appears to be an application by Richard Shergold. Maybe you can just take a moment and look at that. A I see his name on it. MR. OSHRYs It is just the one page. A Okay. Ever had a criminal record. I see no. That is SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 38 the only thing I see there. Q MR. GROHs Pardon me? A I see only have you ever had a criminal record^ and it says no. Q You don't see anything else on that page? A Welly his name on some application for membership in the Temple and obviously somewhere since he was in the upper echelon he made an approach or presentation to join which he couldn't do unless he would get this. Q And was this application by Richard Shergold accepted by the Temple? MR. OSHRYs Do you know? You can only give evidence about what you know. MR. GROHs He is the head of the Temple, MR. OSHRYs It doesn't matter if he is the head. I mean the Pope doesn't necessarily know every person who gets baptized. Q MR. GROHs In any event do you know whether in fact Mr. Shergold's application for membership in the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple was approved? A I would assume that to be an affirmative- I didn't do it myselfo I might have given the okay for them. I am quite sure he couldn't have got in there without my okay. Q In fact was Richard Shergold characterized by the Neo Ch'an Buddhist Temple as a lay priest? A Welly at one time, yes. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 39 Q What is a lay priest? A Yeah, yeah, well, he was not -- it is not quite totally accurate, sir, if I can qualify that. Q Okay, go ahead. A He was a very likable individual to me, and I took great how do you say -- a very likable individual. I took great care, how do you say care, like to know the man. And he had the qualification from what I saw to become a lay priest, and I talked to him about it. I said at one time I wish you would be able to help us out. We have very few people or so in that respect. But formally to have made him one we haven't which also would not exclude that I would have not very quickly made him one if I could just do so if he would oblige us. Q What does a lay priest do? A Well, sir, firstly I want you to understand that we were building a temple. You have a very different outlook in the commercial world what do they do. Everything is in place. We were building this, and we were trying to get a home -- we have no home for the Temple. We had -- whatever we wanted to do we had not even members there because they had to come there. When they came there they could light a candle. They could pray. I would spend time with them. But the idea is that since we call ourselves homeless brethren, that means members without a temple, they SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 40 might be anywhere,, so they mainly pray at home. And there is no interaction like in a Christian church where there is a sermon, and they sing and dance. It is not -- this is very different. They stay in their home and use words and pray on their owny light a candle, relax. And that is about the extent of it. Q So would a lay priest counsel other members of the Temple? A Well, my idea was that he should be able to help people whether they were of the Temple or not. And this would apply especially to students because he had contact to the students, and if they had trouble he could help them if they wished his help. But it was not to convert people or anything. We are not pushy people. Welly everybody wants to have members,, but not at any cost, or we didn't want to coerce anybody. We never did anyway, so I don't, know. I would assume that this case is built of turning me into a criminal. And if you succeed then I lost the case. Q I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. A I thought -- I think that this case is based on the fact if you can prove somewhere that I am -- to turn me a taxpaying honest Canadian to a criminal then your case would have merit. Q How does that relate to what a lay priest does? A Welly in general the whole line of question of my past when I was nobody when I came to Canada, and SNOW'S COURT REPORTING. Edmontony Alberta 41 apparently this is a free country, and you can start from the beginning,, and I didn't deceive anyone. I worked very hard from nothing to become somebody. I never conspired even then. Just trying to find my place amongst the other people who had all papers. I never had a paper. People do not give you papers even if you go through -- I had to make a name for myself the hard way, and I did that. Q Did you write a book entitled To Hell With Canada? A Yeah^ sure, but the question mark is very important. Q But you did author that book? A Yes, sir. Q Now, I am trying to find out simply what a lay priest does, and I understand you to be telling me and tell me if this is complete and correct, that what a lay priest does is basically help other people where he or she can? A It is sort of apprenticeship under myself^ in this case my wife, whoever was there to either learn to baptize people or to console or comfort people. We had the idea that we should have funds for people to help them out especially the brethren who were in the Pai Hu Shih, and usually that went over quite well. But there were never really enough funds, so we mainly send flowers. We watched for people who were sick. But not all the people either in the Pai Hu Shih are members of the Temple. There are very few members. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 42 And we have I think five, six, seven, five thousand students or so, and we may have about three hundred members I think. Q The members of the Temple did you talk to them and teach them your philosophy? A Well, this is why I travel. I caught -- last time I was travelling, and I was supposed to come for the discovery- I had already left, so it was difficult for me having found out to accommodate you. So when I didn't come I surely didn't, feel that I was ducking it. I just wasn't able, and then the events went otherwise, and I needed about -- Q Are you talking about the first time you didn't come to discovery? A Yes. Q Is that when Mr. Piercey and the rest of the people were examined? A I would think so. I am not too sure. Q You say the reason you couldn't come was because you had a commitment to go and teach? A I was already on the road when I got served. Q That is strange because Mr. Wolfman told me you were ill and presented a medical report to me. MRS. SIMONS No, no, just a minute. A No, no, sweetie, he doesn't. You got to tell him. MRS. SIMON: Yeah, but you get caught with the English and now you get confused. He is trying to SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 43 turn you into a liar because you don't understand the English. A I don't think so. MRS. SIMON; Well, he is. He just said that. MR. GROH; No, I am not, A No, no, sir., if that is the case I was sick. I had a drug reaction whenever that was. And I can't remember when it was, sir. Q My question is whether in fact you teach the members of the Temple the philosophy and the way that the Temple thinks they should live and that kind of thing? A Yes, sir, but I am going to be more specific and most likely put my big foot in it. I also teach people who are not in the Temple without that I say this is Temple philosophy. There is a lot of people coming to my seminars and mainly I think -- our followers are there of course. They like to be there., But I would do the same thing if you would be a student. You can listen to it and say, oh, my God, this is a bunch of bunk or whatever. Or you would say, well, the man has some -- makes a point there. You might ascribe to it or not. You know what I am saying? Q Yes. The seminars you are talking about, are they seminars that are given at the Temple Rung Fu studios? A Yeah. Q Are they referred to as meditation seminars or are they something else? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A They are referred to as meditation seminars, but they involve quite a wide range of philosophy from Chinese to the integration of North America. I have a dislike for the fact that if a master is a non-Chinese that he is a lesser master. I don't like that. Q Nowy I asked you a moment ago whether when you first opened your schools they were called Simon Karate. I recall you saying they were? A Yes,, correct. Q And then did the name change to Simon Rung Fu and then to Temple Rung Fu? MR, OSHRYs Mr. Groh, I have already made my position clear with respect to what took place in the 1960s and the early 1970s. It has no relevance to this lawsuit. MR. GROHs Welly we are talking about the school now that in fact was the school that Richard Shergold attended. MR, OSHRY; You can ask him what took place at about the time but not 20 years ago or 30 years ago. A Sir, he was never in a Karate studio at all. Q MR. GROH; I appreciate that, but the names changed, didn't they? The same premises but the names changed? A But I don't know even if that is true, but it is true eventually the name changed. That is true. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A They are referred to as meditation seminars, but they involve quite a wide range of philosophy from Chinese to the integration of North America. I have a dislike for the fact that if a master is a non-Chinese that he is a lesser master. I don't like that. Q Nowy I asked you a moment ago whether when you first opened your schools they were called Simon Karate. I recall you saying they were? A Yes,, correct. Q And then did the name change to Simon Rung Fu and then to Temple Rung Fu? MR, OSHRYs Mr. Groh, I have already made my position clear with respect to what took place in the 1960s and the early 1970s. It has no relevance to this lawsuit. MR. GROHs Welly we are talking about the school now that in fact was the school that Richard Shergold attended. MR, OSHRY; You can ask him what took place at about the time but not 20 years ago or 30 years ago. A Sir, he was never in a Karate studio at all. Q MR. GROH; I appreciate that, but the names changed, didn't they? The same premises but the names changed? A But I don't know even if that is true, but it is true eventually the name changed. That is true. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 45 Q All I am trying to do is find out what the name change was. Did it change from Simon Karate to Simon Kung Fu and then to Temple Kung Fu? A Subsequently^ yes, but we are talking about an amateur period and one later on when we actually went professional because we couldn't afford the costly leases. We either had to close or we had to -- Q What do you mean amateur versus professional? A Well, at one time it was an amateur thing. But we used to charge I think a month, and we couldn't afford teachers. I was doing it myself day and night. Q It was nonprofit in essence? A Well, we lost our shirty yes. Q And when did it turn into what you refer to as professional? A When we changed we began to change the names. Q To Temple Kung Fu? A To Temple Kung Fu, gee, I don't know whether or not -- there might have been another name change before that, siry but it wasn't one which lasted long. I had a tremendous amount of problems with the Japanese. I didn't get -- what is it -- I had trouble when I became a Chinese style. When I changed it to Chinese I had trouble with the Japanese. That is what I am trying to say. Q When you changed from the Japanese Karate to the Chinese Kung Fu -- SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 46 A Version, yeah. Q -- did you take any further training before you did that, or did you then develop your own system? A No, I built, sir, I built on what I had been taught privately when I was a child. There was a substantial amount of knowledge I had then. I had weapon, sword forms, and the basic forms on which the style is built. I was taught then. And when I had enough knowledge I decided to develop my own style as most masters living did. There is a whole -- about 50 or 60 world-renowned masters who founded their own style and became world-renowned masters by going away from either Chinese, Japanese, or Korean just synthesizing the styles and creating their own. Q And that is essentially what you did? A That is what I essentially did, yes, sir. Q Now, as at November of 1988 I understand that there were two studios in Edmonton, one in Calgary, two in Vancouver, and three in Seattle? A This must -- is as accurately -- I don't know offhand, but I am quite sure you have the facts. I would trust you there. Q Subject to your checking that is what you think is the case, correct? A I would think so, yes. Q Let's take a break. (Examination adjourned at 3;18 p.m.) SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 47 (Examination resumed at 3s30 p.m.) MR. OSHRYs Mrs. Simon has just asked me to explain that Mr. Simon was confused and may have had a difficulty with the English. There were two incidents with respect to the discoveries last year, and on the occasion that Mr. Wolfman told you that Dr. Simon was ill in fact he was. MR. GROHs Let's go off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Q MR. GROH; Mr. Simon, there has been some question raised about whether you understand me or not. If at any time -- A I don't want to lie, yeah. Q Just a minute. If at any time throughout this discovery if you have got any doubt or any hesitation about whether you understand me or not will you tell me? A Yeah. MR. OSHRYs Mr. Grohy in theory that is fine, but in principle it doesn't work because things like inflections and accents will -- accentuation of words will mean different things. MR. GROH; No, but if the witness doesn't understand the question that is what I am asking him to do is tell me he doesn't. MR. OSHRY; Well, he may think he under- stands if he doesn't understand. MR. GROH; Well, I can't help that. We roW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta have that problem when everybody speaks English and everybody is highly educated because unfortunately people interpret what they hear, and nobody can do anything about that. I am trying to do the best I can here. MR. OSHRY; I understand. Q MR. GROH; Mr. Simon, we have come back from a break. Do you acknowledge that you are still under oath? A Yes, sir. Q I have also seen reference to you styled as Grand Master Simon. Is that a title that is particular to Kung Fu? A You know, I think this most likely could apply to anyone who has made a name for himself over maybe half a century. Q In the martial arts? A I don't know if there are masters somewhere else. In •music there are none I guess. Maybe there are. Q Your status as a Grand Master that is in Kung Fu, is it? A Yes. Q Now, was that a level that was awarded to you by someone, and if so who? A One claims that. One claims that. Now, in antiquity one would claim and the other master not liking that would come and either clean your clock or take over SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 49 this -- they were a rather primitive people. As a matter of fact you will see that I was the first Grand Master in North America. After I called myself a Grand Master everybody was one or they became one. 50 I think there are a lot of hoodlums in this art and that there are a lot of very fine people in it. But the old masters are dying out. And even I, I mean I am close to 70 now. I am on the way out. But the Grand Master most likely comes from the relentless performance and the international reputation I acquired over 50 years being a part of -- as refereeing world championships. I refereed many. I refereed Bruce Lee's matches. Chuck Norris, I fought Chuck Norris, and Chuck Norris lost when I fought with him. I entered the Master Tournament in the United States and the masters approached me that I should not do so
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    Posted On:
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    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    because they don't enter any longer. It was a conflict of interest. We should let the students make the name for themselves and not me. I was very much in need to get a reputation because really I was very much aware that I didn't have any paperwork. And the struggle here in North America, the Japanese were very much in opposition to Kung Fu people. And when they said Kung Fu is garbage it has no power I rented the university hall here in Edmonton and gave a three-hour performance. And I had about six tons of ice brought SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 50 there, and I set a world record here in destroying ice. And the idea was ice because ice cannot be melted or tampered with. We can tamper with bricks. We can heat them, crack them, precrack them, but ice is a matter which cannot be tampered with. Once a person heats it it melts. Once you carve it it shows lines through it. So I went through this, and once and for all I had an international press here. And I showed that I was a Rung Fu master in my own right. That was the power of the arty and then later I established the skill of the art. These were two different concepts. And after that I thought I deserved the title Grand Master because a Grand Master is also a person who totally devises his own style. Q And approximately when did you start using the term Grand Master, do you remember the year? A No, sir, I really don't know. Q Was it in the '60s or "70s or the '80s? A A while ago, 20 years, maybe 25 years or so I would thinko Q So around 1970? MR. OSHRY; Mr. Groh, he has answered the question. He said 20 or 25 years ago. A '72 maybe. Q MR. GROH;; All right. Now, I think we got off track on one question that I was asking you before the break. I had asked you whether you had ever SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 51 trained under Ed Parker, and was your answer that you had not? A Welly can I speak freely, or do I have to yes or no? Q Speak freely. I may ask you the question again. A Yes and no because Ed was a friend of mine, and he was the first, man having his own studio. So I went there on my own and worked with him on the maty and once in a while he had actors coming in, and he allowed me to take pictures with them, so and so. And I had a concept of punching and circular motion in my punching which threw Ed Parker actually off the mat. And he shook his head, and he said what the hell did you do, Olaf. I said, welly this is a side-way conversion of a forward thrust. And he looked at it and, boy, he said I want to put this in my style. So it was not training under him. Ed Parker was not as well skilled as I was. He was a very poor performer, sir. Q So what I understand you to be saying is that you trained with Ed Parker -- A Yeah. Q -- but you were more or less on equal levels, but you were not -- A Yeah. Q You didn't learn -- A Yeah, yeah, well, he didn't think so. Q All right. But you didn't go down to Los Angeles to learn from him per se? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 52 A Oh, no. Q You went down to work out with him, is that correct? A Well, you know, I learn from him too. Like my people -- if this young man over here goes in a studio and he sees something he hasn't seen he most likely will try it. That is Richard;, you know. Q The kind of thing I am talking about was did you go down and learn certain moves, kicks, punches, whatever from Mr. Parker and then come back and practice them until you were adept at that time? Is that the -- A No, no, it wasn't good stuff. It was horrible stuff. Q Now, I asked you also about some people called the Lee brothers. A I don't know them. Q Do you know a person by the name of Stan Lee? A Yeah, Lee, I know Stan Lee, yes. Q Did Stan Lee teach you Rung Fu? A No, no, sir, not really, no. Q Did you work with Stan Lee? A Well, Stanley Lee was very enamoured. Well, I -- he liked me intensely because I was promoting Rung Fu more than the Chinese ever could do in Alberta. I was really putting it on the map if you want me to say that. And he never taught me Kung Fu, but he showed me a form there once. It was too lengthy. I couldn't remember it. And I myself didn't like it. It was too wavy to -- I didn't just like it, but I was not a SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 53 student of. his. Is that what you mean? Q Yes. A But he showed me things, yes. Nothing I already didn't know. Simply the arts are very interrelated. Sometimes you would not know whether you were a Karate man or you were a Rung Fu man. It is at times not discernible. If I referee students and I saw the different styles sometime I couldn't tell whether this man was a Japanese participant of a Japanese style or a Chinese one. Q But you weren't a student of Stan Lee? A No. Q Do you know Mr. Ben Mah? A Yes. Q Were you a student of his? A NOy well, I wasn't a student. But if it helps you they want -- I was a man that had a big name already by then internationally. They loved me. And these guys would do anything to have me around. But I would study under him,, no. Q What about a Mr. Mark Chan^ do you know him? A Yeah, these were the three people,, the three -- they had a Chinese club. These were -- I forget his name now. Is Mark Chan, yeah,- I know him. Q Were you a student of Mark Chan's? A No,, no. Q Did he teach you Lung sets? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 54 A NO. Q Do you know what that is? A Yeah, Lung fornly no, he didn't, no, no., I don't know whether he knows it to be honest. I don't think he knows it. He has a southern Chinese style. He doesn't practice the Lung. Q You mentioned earlier the Pai Hu Shih? A Mm^ h'mm. Q Your answer is yes? A Yes. Q Can you tell me what that means, please? A This is the style which I invented and held back for years which I have patented myself and where I have a manuscript ready to be published. Q Is there a group referred to as the Pai Hu Shih? A Yes, sir, Q Can you tell me what that group is? A Well, that is the group which we -- well, how do I put this. Q Is that a group to which you teach this special form? A Yeah, only them I teach that. This is a very effective way, very destructive form of Rung Fu which I throughout my studio don't introduce. Q And does a person become a member of the Pai Hu Shih by attaining a certain level, or how does a person become a member? A I don't think the level is so much important as that SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton. Alberta 55 they have a good character. We would I think have a stipulation that they have to be two years with us. Without that they can't become a member. They wouldn't qualify. And they wouldn't qualify to become a member if they had either a criminal record or so and so. But it wasn't the records, the criminality of record. What we would want to know, if they had a record and if they would say they had one it was fine providing there was nothing too bad in there. In my opinion if a person volunteers that he has a record he himself is rehabilitated by the fact that he knew that he did something wrong. If he would not admit it then he is back on the old road, is deceiving again. I wouldn't want him. If they would say they had a record and I had the choice was given to me to decide whether I want him or not I would rather take him than not take him. Q So you were looking for people of good moral character? A Well, I try to set an example. Yes, yes is the answer. Q Now, when you referred to Pai Hu Shih you also referred to the brethren? A Yeah, brethren. Q Can you tell me what that reference is to? A Well, if you could go back ly500 years like put yourself into the frame of mind of the Rung Fu people they would call each other brethren, and the teacher SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 56 was the father, and the mother was a mother teacher, so the relationship was that of a family. It was rather maybe a harsh family with etiquette but always not mean, not abusive, not controlling or directing people but trying to instill a certain philosophy that whatever is goodness is important to be able to try to aspire to be of value to the fellow man if that is acceptable. Q Is that the model on which you organized the Pai Hu Shih? A Yeah, in general. And we have an oath there which is rather patriotic. It has not too much to do with the Pai Hu Shih but to be a good citizen, and in case the government would turn against the people and burn the Temple of the people that one would then come together and then use this skill to free the people of such government which would be a tyrannic government. Q So the members of the Pai Hu Shih would be the brethren? A Correct. Q Mrs. Simon would be the mother? A No, that is not in that Pai Hu Shih. That is in general in Kung Fu, sir. It is the whole general concept. Like not even in the Pai Hu Shih, just in the club even. Q What I understood you to tell me was that the Pai Hu Shih was modeled on a historical Chinese Kung Fu SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 57 model? A So the Pai Hu Shih would have that in common with all of Rung Fu, but I try to get them -- set them above the general club so since there is better knowledge there is also more responsibility to the good of society. I mean I am an idealist. I see the world the way it is not. This was my ideal to find people in that surrounding -- in that spiritual frame. Q Richard Shergold was a member of the Pai Hu Shin, was he not? A Yes, sir, he was a brother. Q For how long, do you know? A I don't know. If he can help me it would be fine. I just don't know. For some time. Q You are talking about a fairly long time? A Well, I would think so.. Long, two, three, four years maybe? I can't. Q About 8 years, would that be correct? A I don'"t contest that. It might be longer or less. But there is some inaccuracy with the man talking to me and saying at some time I through him out. He was 15 years with me. This is not quite accurate because I didn't check. I work on trust. He was with us I think only 8 years, not 15. Q My understanding is that Mr. Shergold began in the Vancouver studio or perhaps the Edmonton studio in about 1981 and then stayed with the organization until SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 57 model? A So the Pai Hu Shih would have that in common with all of Rung Fu, but I try to get them -- set them above the general club so since there is better knowledge there is also more responsibility to the good of society. I mean I am an idealist. I see the world the way it is not. This was my ideal to find people in that surrounding -- in that spiritual frame. Q Richard Shergold was a member of the Pai Hu Shin, was he not? A Yes, sir, he was a brother. Q For how long, do you know? A I don't know. If he can help me it would be fine. I just don't know. For some time. Q You are talking about a fairly long time? A Well, I would think so.. Long, two, three, four years maybe? I can't. Q About 8 years, would that be correct? A I don'"t contest that. It might be longer or less. But there is some inaccuracy with the man talking to me and saying at some time I through him out. He was 15 years with me. This is not quite accurate because I didn't check. I work on trust. He was with us I think only 8 years, not 15. Q My understanding is that Mr. Shergold began in the Vancouver studio or perhaps the Edmonton studio in about 1981 and then stayed with the organization until SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 58 about 1992? A Yeah, yeah, Q Let me just ask you this question, sir. Does it sound correct to you that Mr. Shergold was a member of the Pai Hu Shih for approximately 8 years? A I don't know. Sounds long since he says 8 years. I know he was very long with it. I am not trying to call him a liar. He says 8, but it sounds really long to me because we found out that the total membership somewhere I looked at it was all together 8 years. I am confused. MR. OSHRYs If you don't remember you don't remember. A I'm sorryy I try to cooperate;, and I get myself into trouble. Q MR. GROH; So you don't know whether Mr. Shergold was a member of the Pai Hu Shih for 8 years or not but you have seen -- A I would think somewhere close to that. Q Okay, thank you. And you said that the way you set up the Pai Hu Shih was to keep them above the Rung Fu club, was that correct? A Well, you know, you are a lawyer. Above, that can -- that sometimes that doesn't sound good. If I thought myself above another person that is not really nice, but I wanted to have them -- is there such a word elite? SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 59 Q Yes. Is that what you wanted? A Sort of thing, yeah. Q And so they were trained in a different style and you said a much more destructive style? A Yeah. Q Potentially destructive style, correct? A Well, actually I introduced them to the true concept of Rung Fu which is anywhere else which I was taught by my master, and he told me in time I will find out I will learn not to step forward but to stand still. And I understood that finally it came to me that is the only way it must have been designed because the monks never walked after anyone. And if danger comes to one it is easy to depose of it than going after danger. There are many scientific facts underlying to this, so I have actually proven and established a scientific concept to this method of dealing which no other style ever has attempted to have a scientific proven method in this style which cannot by means of signs discount it. Q Were there any other groups or organizations or classes or anything like the Pai Hu Shih within the Temple Kung Fu system? A There was only one Pai Hu Shih. Q Were there any other groups of different names within the organization? A Well, they were all Kung Fu club people. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta Q So there was the people who studied Rung Fu, and then there was the Pai Hu Shih who were more or less the elite? A Yes, yes. Q And that was the totality of it? A Yes,, yeah. Q I'm sorry, I don't remember whether I asked you what does Pai Hu Shih stand for? A As a translation it means white tiger. Q And that is the name of your style? A Yeah. Q Now, did you refer to each of the cities in which you had studios as a branch? MR, OSHRY; A branch of what? MR, GROHs That is what I am asking for because it shows up in certain documents. A Well, they were all a part of us, so I didn't single them out to be something lesser. Q But each city was referred to as a branch, is that correct? A Well^ I would think it is fair to say that. Q Now, can you tell me when you first met Mr. Shergold or the circumstances when you first met him? A I met him while -- he struck me as a likable -- I liked the man,, But I think my wife sort of or somebody brought him into the organization. And I want you to appreciate the fact that I have taught in SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 61 my lifetime almost half a million people. At that time it was for me easier to remember, so I remember the man distinctly, but I don't know where he was because I had quite a large organization then. Where he was, I can't honestly tell where I met him the first time, whether it was at my house or whether I met him in Edmonton on the job. I don't know. Q Mr. Shergold studied in the Vancouver studio of Temple Rung Fu my understanding is in approximately 1981. Do you know whether that is correct or not? A Quite well possible, yes, sir. Q And I understand that he then became an instructor in the Vancouver studio the next year in 1982. Does that sound correct? MR. OSHRY: Do you know that? Don't guess. A I am trying to oblige. I am not too sure. Well, no, I am getting in trouble. I might not -- I don't know whether he was in Edmonton first. I don't know. If you help me out, I mean you are not going to con me. Q MR. GROH: I understand that Mr. Roman Terlecki was the owner or operator of the Vancouver studio? A Yeah, I think Roman was here first. Q I don't know. A Okay. Q
  4. Bang! is offline
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And in 1981, 1982 I understand that Mr. Terlecki was the operator of the Vancouver studio? SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 62 A Well, to the best of my knowledge, is that fair if I say that? Q Yes. A Okay. Q And that Mr. Shergold then went to Vancouver, trained under Mr. Terlecki, became an instructor under Mr. Terlecki, and then was transferred back to Edmonton in the spring of 1983? A That seems to be accurate to the best of my knowledge. I really don't have this detailed knowledge, but I sort of vaguely remember that there was a certain line of progression. He went through like everybody else, and I think this sounds pretty accurate to me. Q When Richard Shergold was studying at the Vancouver club do you recall ever travelling to the Vancouver club and teaching at any classes that he was in? A When he was instructing already? Q Or a student in Vancouver. MR. OSHRY; In Vancouver, do you remember him in Vancouver being a student or instructor and you going there? A Oh, yeah, yes, sir. Q MR. GROH; And you would teach classes that he was in? A He would teach classes. When he was an instructor he taught classes. Q My understanding is that you would travel around to SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 63 various studios and that you would teach certain classes or give certain seminars or do instruction, is that correct? A Yeah, yes, that's correct. But one qualification, we have a before and after. After the breakaway I don't know what are we talking about here. Q We are talking about 1981 and 1982 before you sold the studios, all right? A Yeah. MR. OSHRY; The studios were sold in '88, not -'81, Q MR. GROHs They were sold in '88 so this is before the sale of the studios. A Before, I'm sorry, that is what I meant. Q And so I understood that you travelled around to the various studios that you owned, you gave classes and instruction and seminars, is that correct? A Yes. At that time I didn't, give seminars really. I don't think so. Q And Vancouver was one of the studios you regularly travelled to? A Well, I don't know regularly. Sometimes it was in fast succession or quite often, and then I would have to go somewhere else, but there was no real regularity. I had to fit it in the way I could travel, you know. Q In any event Vancouver was one of the studios you visited, correct? SNOWS COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta A Right on. Q And do you recall Mr. Shergold being a student or an instructor in the Vancouver studios whenever you were there in '81 or '827 A I am not too sure of the date, but I most. certainly knew him as an instructor, and he was a good instructor, sir- Q And do you recall that that was in Vancouver? A Yes, sir. Q And while Mr. Shergold was an instructor did you teach him in Rung Fu as well? A Sure, I mean these boys liked to be -- I thought -- I don't know -- he must like not to be taught by me any longer, but they loved me to teach them, yes. Q Then my understanding is that Mr. Shergold transferred to Edmonton in the spring of 1983 and came to Edmonton as an instructor. Do you know if that is correct? A Well, he stayed an instructor. You know, if he had travelled from Vancouver to Edmonton he wouldn't be in between -- new instructor -- yeah, yes, correct. Q But that is correct as far as you recall? A As far as I recall, thank you, yes. Q And Edmonton was one of the studios you visited as you travelled around as well? A Sure, yes. Q And you would have done instruction and classes? A Like in all branches. SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 65 Q And so you would have taught Richard Shergold? A Again, yes, yes. Q Now, I understand that in 1986 Mr. Shergold received his Black Belt? A If that is the year. I trust you that is the year. I have no recollection of ity but I have also no reason to oppose that date. Q Did you make decisions on whether a student was ready to receive a Black Belt, or was that a decision made at the local level? A Well, firstly if I may explain as a master I can see whether the man performs or noto My staff and the chief instructor if there was anybody above him they might have recommended himy but even if they would recommend him to me I would know the man. I trained the man. I see him everywhere. There was no reason for me to go to any hypocritical dancing steps. I know the man. And if I thought the man was long enough in there I would just give it to him. Q So the final decision in the awarding of a Black Belt was yours? A Yeah, I wouldn't -- I would not have anybody having a Black Belt unless I wouldn't know of it. Q And did you -- was there a ceremony at which the Black Belt was awarded that you presided at? A Well, yeah, I think it is a very important ceremony when a person ties the sash around the man, and SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta 66 usually in front of a class I think. Sometimes I did it privately. I don't know in his case not. MR. OSHRYs Mr. Groh, maybe this is a good place to stop. MR. GROH; All right. Thank you for your patience. WHICH WAS ALL THE EVIDENCE TAKEN AT THIS EXAMINATION. (Examination concluded at 4;00 p.m.) 1, Pearl Der, hereby certify that I attended at the above examination and took faithful shorthand notes, and the foregoing typewritten sheets are a true and accurate transcript of my shorthand notes to the best of my skill and ability. Dated at the City of Edmonton, in the Province of Alberta^ this 30th day of March, A.D. 1995. Pearl Der, Court Reporter SNOW'S COURT REPORTING Edmonton, Alberta


    Sorry about the formatting.
  5. Steve is offline
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    Posted On:
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, yes.

    A classic.
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