The real history of Hidy Ochiai/Washin-ryu

**jenbsookjen** · Posted On: 2/22/2007 3:51pm

I wondered if everyone here trained at the Headquarters Binghamtom place or the branches? Just curious!

J.

**sempaiman** · Posted On: 2/27/2008 1:28pm

Branch and HQ, anymore info on school, just curious?

**gswheeler** · Posted On: 3/17/2008 12:29am

I've been reading this thread about Hidy Ochiai, and i feel compelled to try to clear a couple of things up.

First of all, a bit of a disclaimer: I was a student of Washin-Ryu for about ten years. I had an excellent instructor at the Corning, New York dojo, and have nothing but good things to say about him. However, i was never a Hidy-fanatic, in ten years i only met the man a few times, and one of the things i remember the most about being involved in washin-ryu were all of the people walking around saying things like "sensei says..." It all got to be too much like a religion for me, and stopped being like a place to study a martial art. I don't necessarily blame Hidy Ochiai for this; there were and may still be a lot of people who need something in life as a crutch, and karate at least is healthy. Again, he may not have encouraged the Hidy-worship, but i also never heard of him discouraging it either.

Now, i have been living and working in Japan for the past 13 years. I have mentioned Hidy Ochiai over here a few times and no one knows who he is. I have never found anything about washin ryu karate, or about the mysterious temple that Ochiai trained at. I had a lot of questions about his background when i was a student of his, and none of them have been laid to rest in my time in Japan. I would never go so far as to say that he is being untruthful, but neither would i be willing to support the veracity of his claims.

I will say that he, and some of his students are very good at what they do. Mr. Antoniades in Corning is not only an excellent karateka, but also an excellent example of what a life devoted to budo can do for an individual. I have the utmost respect for the man, and appreciation for what he taught me. I say for what he taught me because i only made the trip down to Vestal a few times, and was never impressed with what i experienced there.

The one thing that makes me sceptical of Hidy Ochiai's claims is the mystery that surrounds his background. I have been training in aikido for 18 years now, and both my instructor in the states and my sensei here in Japan are both very aware of their lineage and their connection to O-Sensei, the founder of aikido. My sensei here can tell you who his sensei was, who he trained under and for how long, and how he was connected to O-sensei. There isn't any mystery to any of this, and at least in Japan, if there were any mystery it would automatically be taken as a sign that something was fishy. Not only in martial art circles, but in society in general Japan is a place where people are very aware and proud of who their seniors are. An unwillingness to admit who you are a product of would be seen as disrespectul of one's seniors and sensei.

OK, waaaaaaaaaay back in the beginning of this thread there was some confusion about why a Buddhist temple would teach a Shinto art, etc., etc. In Japan it is common practice for Buddhist temples to contain Shinto shrines, There isn't a strict delineation of religions here. Most Japanese say that they are Buddhist when they are born and when they die, and Shinto in between. However, i have only ever heard of two arts being taught at temples here, and they are both extremely unusual for this day and age. One is Shorinji Kempo, and the other arts tend to be sword arts generally, kenjutsu, iaido and some of the older koryu. None of these are mainstream, and again, in my experience here, which is admittedly limited, i have never heard of any karate style being associated with a temple, or vice-versa.

And finally, for what it is worth, and from what i have seen in Japan, Washin-Ryu is essentially Shotokan Karate. The reliance on deep front and back stances, as well as the way that the reverse punch is formed, the katas, etc., all tend to make me think that what i learned in the States was basically Shotokan.

**sempaiman** · Posted On: 3/17/2008 7:20am

Originally Posted by gswheeler

I've been reading this thread about Hidy Ochiai, and i feel compelled to try to clear a couple of things up.

First of all, a bit of a disclaimer: I was a student of Washin-Ryu for about ten years. I had an excellent instructor at the Corning, New York dojo, and have nothing but good things to say about him. However, i was never a Hidy-fanatic, in ten years i only met the man a few times, and one of the things i remember the most about being involved in washin-ryu were all of the people walking around saying things like "sensei says..." It all got to be too much like a religion for me, and stopped being like a place to study a martial art. I don't necessarily blame Hidy Ochiai for this; there were and may still be a lot of people who need something in life as a crutch, and karate at least is healthy. Again, he may not have encouraged the Hidy-worship, but i also never heard of him discouraging it either.

Now, i have been living and working in Japan for the past 13 years. I have mentioned Hidy Ochiai over here a few times and no one knows who he is. I have never found anything about washin ryu karate, or about the mysterious temple that Ochiai trained at. I had a lot of questions about his background when i was a student of his, and none of them have been laid to rest in my time in Japan. I would never go so far as to say that he is being untruthful, but neither would i be willing to support the veracity of his claims.

I will say that he, and some of his students are very good at what they do. Mr. Antoniades in Corning is not only an excellent karateka, but also an excellent example of what a life devoted to budo can do for an individual. I have the utmost respect for the man, and appreciation for what he taught me. I say for what he taught me because i only made the trip down to Vestal a few times, and was never impressed with what i experienced there.

The one thing that makes me sceptical of Hidy Ochiai's claims is the mystery that surrounds his background. I have been training in aikido for 18 years now, and both my instructor in the states and my sensei here in Japan are both very aware of their lineage and their connection to O-Sensei, the founder of aikido. My sensei here can tell you who his sensei was, who he trained under and for how long, and how he was connected to O-sensei. There isn't any mystery to any of this, and at least in Japan, if there were any mystery it would automatically be taken as a sign that something was fishy. Not only in martial art circles, but in society in general Japan is a place where people are very aware and proud of who their seniors are. An unwillingness to admit who you are a product of would be seen as disrespectul of one's seniors and sensei.

OK, waaaaaaaaaay back in the beginning of this thread there was some confusion about why a Buddhist temple would teach a Shinto art, etc., etc. In Japan it is common practice for Buddhist temples to contain Shinto shrines, There isn't a strict delineation of religions here. Most Japanese say that they are Buddhist when they are born and when they die, and Shinto in between. However, i have only ever heard of two arts being taught at temples here, and they are both extremely unusual for this day and age. One is Shorinji Kempo, and the other arts tend to be sword arts generally, kenjutsu, iaido and some of the older koryu. None of these are mainstream, and again, in my experience here, which is admittedly limited, i have never heard of any karate style being associated with a temple, or vice-versa.

And finally, for what it is worth, and from what i have seen in Japan, Washin-Ryu is essentially Shotokan Karate. The reliance on deep front and back stances, as well as the way that the reverse punch is formed, the katas, etc., all tend to make me think that what i learned in the States was basically Shotokan.

Well said. You just said what I always suspected. What he learned there was Shotokan and he just named it Washin-Ryu when he came here. He was a 4th than when he came to this area and from there promotions are a mystery. I remember around '68 when he said on radio show he was going to test for 5th dan on some island with a group of masters called the "monkeys". Where supposedly you can be attacked anytime and that he did not sleep for a week. He said he took short naps as he drank water in a pond. I found that story very suspicious. His web site does not state his rank and any sort of promotion time line. Only place I found anything about hes rank was on the "Masters od the Rising Sun" web site. There it says he is 8th dan. The guy is good at forms but I never thought he was a good fighter. I just could not take the "sensei" worshipping. And yes, if you swept floor always and went to demos, you got promoted....

**Geechoon** · Posted On: 7/11/2008 6:50am

If I may join this discusion about Master Ochiai

I trained at the Elmira school for 1977 - 1983. Back then we were allowed to kick to the groin and I also learned that if you have rules in fighting then it's not fighting. So those who believe their fighting is better, i ask you do you have rules?

Greg

**kultist** · Posted On: 7/11/2008 7:21am

Originally Posted by Geechoon

If I may join this discusion about Master Ochiai

I trained at the Elmira school for 1977 - 1983. Back then we were allowed to kick to the groin and I also learned that if you have rules in fighting then it's not fighting. So those who believe their fighting is better, i ask you do you have rules?

Greg

Right, except those who have some rules will have better techniques because they are more practiced either because they can do them full force or because they are spending less time out of training due to injury. Why would a muay thai fighter use a groin kick to bring down an opponent when his leg kick could do the exact same thing?

**sempaiman** · Posted On: 7/12/2008 11:19am

Originally Posted by Geechoon

If I may join this discusion about Master Ochiai

I trained at the Elmira school for 1977 - 1983. Back then we were allowed to kick to the groin and I also learned that if you have rules in fighting then it's not fighting. So those who believe their fighting is better, i ask you do you have rules?

Greg

Fist of all, there are no rules in a real fight (parking lot,street, etc). But Washin-Ryu's no-contact timing sparring doesn't prepare you for anything.