The real history of Hidy Ochiai/Washin-ryu

[DerAuslander]

I see your point, Gorilla. However, if you take all the 360+ degree spin kicks and ridgehand blocks, and start throwing jabs and DLTs, would it still be right to call it TKD?

My formal training consisted of shotokan/TKD and some "traditional" standup jujutsu. Watching me fight, most martially educated people would guess I've done a significant amount of MT, along with some judo and BJJ. Am I still a karateka?

Yes.

TKD didn't have 360 round kicks to begin with, and fought using FC rules, boxing gloves, and headgear.

My art is mine. If I train it and evolve it...that is my decision. Just like any other artist.

People assume arts are static. They are not.

[WunHungLo]

Yes.

TKD didn't have 360 round kicks to begin with, and fought using FC rules, boxing gloves, and headgear.

My art is mine. If I train it and evolve it...that is my decision. Just like any other artist.

People assume arts are static. They are not.

As you say, though; your art is yours. I'm curious why you still choose to use someone elses label when your "TKD" is apparently quite different from
99.99% of all the other TKD out there.

As for arts remaining static, it sounds like TKD would have been better off that way. It certainly doesn't seem to have improved.

[polihale]

I'm a newbie to this website. This thread has been extremely interesting. I was born in Binghamton and studied Washin-Ryu at SUNY Cortland when I was in high school. It was the only MA training I've ever had. I barely went on after high school. I think I was a blue belt. Can't even remember.

I live in Hawaii now so, of course, Washin-Ryu is totally unknown here among the Filipino, Chinese, Pacific Island MA's. Anyway, I enjoyed my classes (but I was a kid and had nothing with which to compare it). I have to admit my teacher (John Perricone) puffed-up the "secret, mystical" aspects. The senior students quietly whispered about "hidden moves" in the katas that were only revealed with time invested in the program. And some katas were seldom taught, or taught in private to certain senior students. Looking back, it kept my friends and I hooked and interested, I'm sure it was by design. No one really knew if what we WERE learning had any real-life value.

Washin-Ryu does promote inner peace and self-awareness, not just fighting. But then again, so does religion and Alcoholics Anonymous. Looking back now, I tend to doubt the fighting skills I learned. Of course, like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. There was a one-legged black belt in the program who could spar two-legged opponents with surprising effectiveness.

This was 1984-1987.

I was back in Cortland in the Fall of 1994 and decided to go back to Washin-Ryu at SUNY Cortland for a semester. At the time, Hidy Ochiai's son was an assistant teacher there. Forgot his name. Not the son that became a surgeon, the other one. Anyway, I had been away for so long, I forgot a Green Belt kata. Hidy's son was teaching it to me and -- incredibly -- he made a few mistakes and kept going. I caught his mistakes, but assumed that the mistakes must be mine own. I couldn't believe that a Black Belt -- Hidy's own son -- could goof a Green Belt kata. When we finished, I asked for clarification. He seemed to stumble over his answer so I asked him, "Do you even know the kata?" I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. Really. In fact, John Perricone once told me that Hidy can (but rarely does) spontaneously promote a student without a formal exam. He can observe, for example, a Yellow Belt, over time and simply decide one day to promote them to Green. Anyway, given this option, I considered the possibility that Hidy had promoted his sons to Black Belts because of their lifetime exposure. In that case, it's possible, so I thought, that his son may not know a Green Belt kata.

Whatever. Anyway, it was a casual question and answer and we spent a few more minutes on it. I knew him somewhat informally (not friends, but not strictly strangers, either). I thought nothing of it.

Days later, I found out he complained to his dad that SUNY Cortland students were disrespectful and that I had embarrassed myself and the dojo. John Perricone called me at home (I had known him for years and thought him to be a man of integrity) and didn't bother to ask for my side of the story. He insisted that I contact father and son Ochiai and apologize profusely and ask for forgiveness.

At that moment, I was extremely unimpressed with Washin-Ryu. I never went back and never spoke to anyone from the SUNY Cortland program again.

By the way, according to the story I heard, the temple in which Hidy trained was near Hiroshima. The "best" story I remember hearing is the earthquake story. When a major earthquake hit the temple, the students were hand-chopping falling blocks in mid-air. Really; they told us that. The other story was that Hidy was enslaved to do chores and cleaning. And only once in a while, his master would share a tiny slice of knowledge. I guess this sets the stage for his own students to keep paying to come back, hoping "today is the day" they'll get to see some tiny, secret nugget of knowledge.

Thanks everyone for sharing stories.

[new2bjj]

Sounds like typical martial arts cult crap. All I rmemeber about Ochiai is that he liked to go on wild world of sports for the Aaron Banks MA Circus and have **** broken over him while he sat on a bed of nails. And that awful book, where he has one guy slung over his back, while he kicks another, which was laughable, even when the only thing you could read was Black Belt and Inside Kung fu.

[Plasma]

I'm a newbie to this website. This thread has been extremely interesting. I was born in Binghamton and studied Washin-Ryu at SUNY Cortland when I was in high school. It was the only MA training I've ever had. I barely went on after high school. I think I was a blue belt. Can't even remember.

I live in Hawaii now so, of course, Washin-Ryu is totally unknown here among the Filipino, Chinese, Pacific Island MA's. Anyway, I enjoyed my classes (but I was a kid and had nothing with which to compare it). I have to admit my teacher (John Perricone) puffed-up the "secret, mystical" aspects. The senior students quietly whispered about "hidden moves" in the katas that were only revealed with time invested in the program. And some katas were seldom taught, or taught in private to certain senior students. Looking back, it kept my friends and I hooked and interested, I'm sure it was by design. No one really knew if what we WERE learning had any real-life value.

Washin-Ryu does promote inner peace and self-awareness, not just fighting. But then again, so does religion and Alcoholics Anonymous. Looking back now, I tend to doubt the fighting skills I learned. Of course, like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it. There was a one-legged black belt in the program who could spar two-legged opponents with surprising effectiveness.

This was 1984-1987.

I was back in Cortland in the Fall of 1994 and decided to go back to Washin-Ryu at SUNY Cortland for a semester. At the time, Hidy Ochiai's son was an assistant teacher there. Forgot his name. Not the son that became a surgeon, the other one. Anyway, I had been away for so long, I forgot a Green Belt kata. Hidy's son was teaching it to me and -- incredibly -- he made a few mistakes and kept going. I caught his mistakes, but assumed that the mistakes must be mine own. I couldn't believe that a Black Belt -- Hidy's own son -- could goof a Green Belt kata. When we finished, I asked for clarification. He seemed to stumble over his answer so I asked him, "Do you even know the kata?" I wasn't trying to be disrespectful. Really. In fact, John Perricone once told me that Hidy can (but rarely does) spontaneously promote a student without a formal exam. He can observe, for example, a Yellow Belt, over time and simply decide one day to promote them to Green. Anyway, given this option, I considered the possibility that Hidy had promoted his sons to Black Belts because of their lifetime exposure. In that case, it's possible, so I thought, that his son may not know a Green Belt kata.

Whatever. Anyway, it was a casual question and answer and we spent a few more minutes on it. I knew him somewhat informally (not friends, but not strictly strangers, either). I thought nothing of it.

Days later, I found out he complained to his dad that SUNY Cortland students were disrespectful and that I had embarrassed myself and the dojo. John Perricone called me at home (I had known him for years and thought him to be a man of integrity) and didn't bother to ask for my side of the story. He insisted that I contact father and son Ochiai and apologize profusely and ask for forgiveness.

At that moment, I was extremely unimpressed with Washin-Ryu. I never went back and never spoke to anyone from the SUNY Cortland program again.

By the way, according to the story I heard, the temple in which Hidy trained was near Hiroshima. The "best" story I remember hearing is the earthquake story. When a major earthquake hit the temple, the students were hand-chopping falling blocks in mid-air. Really; they told us that. The other story was that Hidy was enslaved to do chores and cleaning. And only once in a while, his master would share a tiny slice of knowledge. I guess this sets the stage for his own students to keep paying to come back, hoping "today is the day" they'll get to see some tiny, secret nugget of knowledge.

Thanks everyone for sharing stories.

ha! Thats for sharing that. I just like called him "Fucy Ochiai" and watch his student flume.

[polishillusion]

****, i gotta reread this forum

[polishillusion]

damn, i hope no one is mad at me....

To Sifu Stone- i hope i didnt disrespect you in anyway, cause i dont mean to, i respect you a lot

Washin Ryu students on BU campus are complete idiots and whatever, thats my point and its my only real point ever on this

I tried ketsugen, and it didnt match me (i was not willing to take it to the higher level so quickly, but i guess i will in time)

~~~~~this is just a flame war now, so im just gonna watch~~~~~~~

[daGorilla]

I see your point, Gorilla. However, if you take all the 360+ degree spin kicks and ridgehand blocks, and start throwing jabs and DLTs, would it still be right to call it TKD?

My formal training consisted of shotokan/TKD and some "traditional" standup jujutsu. Watching me fight, most martially educated people would guess I've done a significant amount of MT, along with some judo and BJJ. Am I still a karateka?

A good question. Personally, I say "yes".

I am a karateka (studied roughly 25 years), but I've studied about ten or so years of Filipino arts and (recently) I've been studying BJJ for nearly a year (NOOB). Along the way I've picked up a little kickboxing technique from a fellow karateka who is also an excellent Muay Thai kickboxer.

In a nutshell, my fighting doesn't look very "karatefied" either, especially compared to beginners or even most typical, shodan ranked students -- but that doesn't make me a non-karateka.

Maybe the real misnomer is the <style>-ka. We're all students of martial arts, after all, and those of us that pursue those studies for a long time almost invariably cross train in the pursuit of greater understanding and knowledge. Many (if not damn near all) of the traditional karate masters, for example, have advanced ranks in judo, aikido, kendo, jujutsu, or other arts.

Personally, I still think of myself as primarily a karateka, if for no other reason than it's the art I've studied the longest and hold the highest rank in. On the other hand, I've all but left it for now while I study BJJ.

I guess your question draws another question -- what ultimately defines a style, do styles need to be rigidly tied to dogmatic techniques, or should styles be identified more by general philosophies of fighting than specific techniques?

-daGorilla

[DerAuslander]

As you say, though; your art is yours. I'm curious why you still choose to use someone elses label when your "TKD" is apparently quite different from
99.99% of all the other TKD out there.

As for arts remaining static, it sounds like TKD would have been better off that way. It certainly doesn't seem to have improved.

I'm still kicking and punching, and looking for ways to kick and punch better, and new ways to apply kicking and punching...

So the name fits.

[daGorilla]

The only reason I wrote what I wrote was b/c I had reason to beleave that, some ppl from other clubs inluding the one outlined has been talking. I Started out with basicly if the shoe fits and I even said if it does not apply not to warry about it. However, after woods two ppl arted talking **** with there replays hence all this started. As I said, all of it was funny too me. Like I said I'm a man of action so this does not bother me in the least bit. But other then that, I'm cool with everyone, as long as the respect level is there. Two ppl already felt the need to try and be bick shots, hence way I said, Well lates train, skill for skill and let see what happnes. But you know as well as I do, those whom talk **** never step up.

That last sentence is likely true.

On the other hand, geographical boundries and crazy-ass posts that sound like they were written by the Unabomber (with spelling worse than an average sixth grader) don't exactly instill one with the motivation to meet such a challenge.

Even if you are bad ass, you post like a dumb ass.

For contrast/comparison, I offer Scrapper's excellent callout (in another thread -- use the search function) to wing chunners. Notice how he is funny, eloquent, AND respectful. AND he even offers porn and booze to any 'Chunners' that step up and best him.

Note that I'm not criticizing your martial arts skills, for which I have no basis -- just your netiquette. Bullshido people like to step up generally speaking, but you have to sound like you're NOT -- I repeat NOT -- fucking insane.

And of course, porn and booze are always welcome. Perhaps it should be offered up for every throwdown.

-dagorilla