The real history of Hidy Ochiai/Washin-ryu

**DarkShaolin** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 11:15am

I have no clue. I don't even touch that issue.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 11:20am

Originally Posted by DarkShaolin

I see your point, However, I still think if thought and train the right away anything can be usful. It would come down to who is better trained. But I see your point also.

How the style is trained is part of the style. If a style is trained "alive" meaning, full resistance, full sparring and trying apply technique on someone not letting you, your good to go. Some styles don't do that hence they are inheirently flawed.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 11:21am

Originally Posted by DarkShaolin

I have no clue. I don't even touch that issue.

I know, your switzerland.

**WunHungLo** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 11:45am

Originally Posted by KageKaze

How the style is trained is part of the style. If a style is trained "alive" meaning, full resistance, full sparring and trying apply technique on someone not letting you, your good to go. Some styles don't do that hence they are inheirently flawed.

Many styles would instantly dissappear if they began training in an "alive" manner.

Imagine an entire ATA dojang suddenly going at each other full bore, only to realise that their deadliest kicks aren't strong enough to knock down a 2 year old girl with polio.
Picture the looks on the faces of karateka around the world as they have their faces smashed in trying to block a punch that doesn't stop 6 inches from their head.
My favorite, though would be the wing chun'ers endlessly chain punching each other, finding that the only bones being broken are their pinky and ring fingers, which we all know are the best part of the hand to strike with.
I'm not even going to touch Aikido with this thought, since I'm unable to imagine a room full of wannabe samurai trying to channel ki, as they make every effort NOT to strike their opponent.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 11:50am

Or the Bujinkan Ninjers realizing they just can't walk around an opponent cause the opponent won't be frozen in a lunge punch.

Or getting choked out by a Jujutsu-ka while trying to pinch your way out of top mount. Oh wait, that happened, and I was the Jujutsu-ka.

**daGorilla** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 1:10pm

Originally Posted by G.R. Bug

For what it's worth, I have seen (in a couple of printed sources) a kata called Matsukaze that was supposedly a Japanese version of Rohai, a Shuri-te lineage kata. There's an issue of "Karate Illustrated" circa 1975 that has Bill Ryusaki on the cover and includes a step-by-step photo breakdown of a kata called Matsukaze. If anyone's interested, I can drag out my magazines and see if I can determine the exact issue.

Also, I recall once seeing a Shito-ryu book auctioned on e-Bay that supposedly included three versions of Rohai -- assuming the Shito-ryu style truly includes three different Rohai's, maybe that helps explain why Washin-ryu has multiple Matsukaze kata.

Just thought I'd chime in briefly -- I've was a long time Shito-Ryu dude.

Matsukaze is not unique to Washin Ryu. We have it in Shito-Ryu as well. Shito-Ryu is a kata-whore as a style though, and has lots of katas. Individual Shito-Ryu schools tend to favor their own particular sets. Heian/Pinan are pretty universal.

I forget the Okinawan name for Matsukaze... sorry.. but it isn't Rohai. Rohai is a totally different kata.

Rohai (also called Rohai Shodan) is a totally different kata, and an old kata. Rohai Nidan and Rohai Sandan are, to my knowledge, modern kata created by (or at least taught by) Kotaka Sensei, who is based in Hawaii.

-daGorilla

**daGorilla** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 1:15pm

Originally Posted by WunHungLo

Many styles would instantly dissappear if they began training in an "alive" manner.

Imagine an entire ATA dojang suddenly going at each other full bore, only to realise that their deadliest kicks aren't strong enough to knock down a 2 year old girl with polio.
Picture the looks on the faces of karateka around the world as they have their faces smashed in trying to block a punch that doesn't stop 6 inches from their head.
My favorite, though would be the wing chun'ers endlessly chain punching each other, finding that the only bones being broken are their pinky and ring fingers, which we all know are the best part of the hand to strike with.
I'm not even going to touch Aikido with this thought, since I'm unable to imagine a room full of wannabe samurai trying to channel ki, as they make every effort NOT to strike their opponent.

I say nonsense. If previously "non-alive" styles started training in a more "alive" manner, they would figure out what is good, what sucks, and become better arts for the effort. The arts might change a little, but that doesn't mean they would die.

Arts like Aikido might develop some striking and weed out all but the best (I'm assuming there are some, mind you) throws and footwork. And plenty of karate and TKD and even Wing chun is already fairly "alive".

Last but not least -- there will always be a market for watered down martial arts -- kids in particular. And there's nothing really wrong with that. I personally don't think young children need to be taught in an overly "alive" manner when they begin training. Rather, aliveness should be introduced as basic skills, confidence, and maturity improves.

-daGorilla

**WunHungLo** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 1:36pm

I see your point, Gorilla. However, if you take all the 360+ degree spin kicks and ridgehand blocks, and start throwing jabs and DLTs, would it still be right to call it TKD?

My formal training consisted of shotokan/TKD and some "traditional" standup jujutsu. Watching me fight, most martially educated people would guess I've done a significant amount of MT, along with some judo and BJJ. Am I still a karateka?

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 2:05pm

Originally Posted by DarkShaolin

[I am tired of hearing my name in people’s mouths if they can not hold a candle to me in any shape or form. Have your actions speak for yourselves. The day you can train with me and out train me, or beat me in fighting, Kata’s, self-defines… then you can talk ****, because then you would have truly trained to be the best.

Angelo, who on Bullshido been saying ****? Other then the Washin Ryu Fags I never herd anyone say **** about your club?

**DarkShaolin** · Posted On: 5/09/2006 4:10pm

The only reason I wrote what I wrote was b/c I had reason to beleave that, some ppl from other clubs inluding the one outlined has been talking. I Started out with basicly if the shoe fits and I even said if it does not apply not to warry about it. However, after woods two ppl arted talking **** with there replays hence all this started. As I said, all of it was funny too me. Like I said I'm a man of action so this does not bother me in the least bit. But other then that, I'm cool with everyone, as long as the respect level is there. Two ppl already felt the need to try and be bick shots, hence way I said, Well lates train, skill for skill and let see what happnes. But you know as well as I do, those whom talk **** never step up.