The real history of Hidy Ochiai/Washin-ryu

**UnknownLineage** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 8:25pm

Originally Posted by G.R. Bug

For what it's worth, I have seen (in a couple of printed sources) a kata called Matsukaze that was supposedly a Japanese version of Rohai, a Shuri-te lineage kata. There's an issue of "Karate Illustrated" circa 1975 that has Bill Ryusaki on the cover and includes a step-by-step photo breakdown of a kata called Matsukaze. If anyone's interested, I can drag out my magazines and see if I can determine the exact issue.

Also, I recall once seeing a Shito-ryu book auctioned on e-Bay that supposedly included three versions of Rohai -- assuming the Shito-ryu style truly includes three different Rohai's, maybe that helps explain why Washin-ryu has multiple Matsukaze kata.

I'd be interested to see it, but unfortunately it may not help. We learned rohai for tournaments and it looks nothing like our matsukaze... :(

**G.R. Bug** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 8:25pm

Hmm, curiosity got the better of me and I dug out my "Karate Ill" mags -- it was the October 1976 issue that contains the Matsukaze breakdown. The kata is demonstrated by a Shito-ryu stylist, which kinda tends to negate the idea that Matsukaze is the Japanese version of Rohai, since Shito-ryu supposedly contains Rohai.

Getting back on-topic, UnknownLineage, you may want to get your hands on that issue of "Karate Illustrated" and see if the kata looks familiar to you.

**G.R. Bug** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 8:27pm

Originally Posted by UnknownLineage

I'd be interested to see it, but unfortunately it may not help. We learned rohai for tournaments and it looks nothing like our matsukaze... :(

Gotcha. I'm thinking perhaps I got bad information about Rohai = Matsukaze.

**G.R. Bug** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 8:49pm

Aha! I did a little searching around on the 'net, and it appears Matsukaze is the Japanese version of another Okinawan kata, Wankan. On reflection, I probably didn't get faulty information, I just have a faulty memory. Sorry about the confusion.

**G.R. Bug** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 8:51pm

Also, Meikyo is the Shotokan version of Rohai, according to numerous 'net sources. Damn, I could make corn flakes complicated, couldn't I? Maybe I should now post my half-remembered notions about the history of Wing Chun, eh?

**UrbanArmory** · Posted On: 8/03/2005 9:49pm

If you'll allow me to butt in slightly, as far as traditionally learning martial arts from Japanese Shinto temples, the Kashima temple has been known historically to be a martial arts center, with it's traveling priests instructing and gathering information- I believe they get a quick side-mention in Book of Five Rings. Kashima is pretty odd, though. Otherwise, it's certainly dang suspect that kempo would be taught in a Shinto temple, historically.

**Miguksaram** · Posted On: 8/05/2005 8:26am

Originally Posted by UrbanArmory

If you'll allow me to butt in slightly, as far as traditionally learning martial arts from Japanese Shinto temples, the Kashima temple has been known historically to be a martial arts center, with it's traveling priests instructing and gathering information- I believe they get a quick side-mention in Book of Five Rings. Kashima is pretty odd, though. Otherwise, it's certainly dang suspect that kempo would be taught in a Shinto temple, historically.

Now that is an interesting fact. Considering that Mst. O seems to have an obsession with Musashi and has translated the book. So another partial red flag has been thrown up in my mind. Is his training at the temple his fantasy derived from his readings of the Book of the Five Rings.

**UrbanArmory** · Posted On: 8/05/2005 7:26pm

Yeah- I've never heard of any other martial arts that came out of Shinto temples. Just drawing conclusions, I would suspect that there are 3 main options here:

1) There ARE a few temples, mainly to martial deities, which had/have exocism rituals which mimic a martial art or martial encounter. It's possible that someone would try to maybe adapt concepts of them to actual fighting.

2) It could have been handed down from sohei, who despite general myth, were basically bodyguards purchased for security/strongarming for different temples and really weren't related to the temples themselves, at least not martially.

3) Somebody down the line is/was full of ****.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 8/28/2005 10:36am

I have had expirence with Washin Ryu Karate becuase I went to school in Binghamton, NY where they have a strong presence and their main school is just down the road.

Personally, I don't know or care about the history, however, I do know about there practices. First of all they suck hard. There techniques are basically very watered down Karate-do. However, you can't tell them that becuase if you insult their style they are obligated to beat you. (Anyone still at Binghamton University that would like to test that?)

As for the instant outcase ****, that is very true. When I started Martial Arts I signed up for the Washin Ryu Gym class that they run. My only Martial Arts expierence before that was 1 summer in Genbukan Ninpo. So he told the class to go into front stance. So everyone does and the brown belts are going around to correct, however, I guess mine so bad (I assume) that he felt the need to kick out my front leg. Well I saw it coming a mile away and shifting my weight and lifted my leg. The brown belt was so upset, he kicked me out. Luckily, the next day I went to the campus BJJ club and loved it. Basically, if you did anything to point out how crappy they are history/technique etc. They send you away.

Stay away from Washin Ryu Crap.

**Steveni** · Posted On: 4/01/2006 5:37pm

Hi, while everyone is entitled to their own opinion, they should not blatantly insult a style. I have been a student of Master Ochiai for 12 years and I can assure you it is not crap, but has improved my life in so many ways. Please don't draw a conclusion of Washin Ryu based on attending classes taught by one of his students at a University. You should study directly under Master Ochiai before drawing a conclusion about Washin Ryu. I have never seen Master Ochiai kick out anyone's leg for not doing a good front stance and I am sure that Master Ochiai would kick out any so called branch instructor or club instructor that would do that.
How long ago did that happen? I think I know who the instructor is and he does not attend class at Headquarters very often to stay in tune with Master Ochiai's teaching and current methods and has probably strayed far from it.

Steve

Originally Posted by KageKaze

I have had expirence with Washin Ryu Karate becuase I went to school in Binghamton, NY where they have a strong presence and their main school is just down the road.

As for the instant outcase ****, that is very true. When I started Martial Arts I signed up for the Washin Ryu Gym class that they run. My only Martial Arts expierence before that was 1 summer in Genbukan Ninpo. So he told the class to go into front stance. So everyone does and the brown belts are going around to correct, however, I guess mine so bad (I assume) that he felt the need to kick out my front leg. Well I saw it coming a mile away and shifting my weight and lifted my leg. The brown belt was so upset, he kicked me out. Luckily, the next day I went to the campus BJJ club and loved it. Basically, if you did anything to point out how crappy they are history/technique etc. They send you away.

Stay away from Washin Ryu Crap.