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  1. UnknownLineage is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 12:13pm


     Style: Washin-ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    The real history of Hidy Ochiai/Washin-ryu

    Does anyone know the real history of Hidy Ochiai and his "karate" style, Washin-ryu? I have been there for a number of years and the stories just don't make sense to me anymore.

    Can anybody clarify? Does he really have a traditional karate background? Or maybe Judo? I heard that he started in Judo and then made up some kata for karate competition and then learned shotokan from Mikami before launching a more traditional focus. However, this is all closely guarded from his students and noone seems to know more than the "party line."

    I am getting tired of being seen with skeptical eyes every time I tell the version I learned to authentic karateka...

    Please help...
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  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 1:03pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownLineage
    Does anyone know the real history of Hidy Ochiai and his "karate" style, Washin-ryu? I have been there for a number of years and the stories just don't make sense to me anymore.

    Can anybody clarify? Does he really have a traditional karate background? Or maybe Judo? I heard that he started in Judo and then made up some kata for karate competition and then learned shotokan from Mikami before launching a more traditional focus. However, this is all closely guarded from his students and noone seems to know more than the "party line."

    I am getting tired of being seen with skeptical eyes every time I tell the version I learned to authentic karateka...

    Please help...
    Here is a summary of what you may or may not already know. He claims to learn from a person called Kaname Saito (deceased 1979) and was taught in a temple. Accordningly he was taught both Naha-te and Shuri-te system (you can see the Shuri with the use of the Pine Tree in his emblem). Wa-shin ryu is his system that he placed together, with his teacher's permission, back in 1968. Wa (hamony) Shin (truth). I didn't see any discussion on katas that were exclusively made up by him. Most of what I saw written are general katas practiced in most Okinawan karate. His Wa-shin ryu is an encomplimation of both Naha and Shuri. He was part of the USKA and PKA back in the days. He now runs several schools and does a lot for the community in general. So now you know a wee bit of his background without doing much research.

    So here is what is suspect about the history:

    A) Learning martial arts in a Japanese temple - Most temples would be Shinto temples, if they taught anything, it would Shorinji Kenpo. I don't believe that this is a Naha nor a Shuri system, perhaps I more distinct Karate-ka history buffs can clear this up.

    B) Doesn't talk about his training in the temple on the grounds that it is sacred. - This tends to throw up a red flag in my book. For most Japanese, History and lineage is very important and very documented. For him not to discuss his training and details is very rare.

    C) He left the temple in '62. He doesn't discuss how long he was training there. There is a 40 year gap between the time Shotokan was first introduced until he left the temple. Significance? You should look up the different Okinawan systems and see when there were introduced to Japan (noticed how I said YOU should look up). This information can help narrow down what systems he may have been taught. Naha-te and Shuri-te is a very generic term describing which prefecture the the person was taught. Once you level down the list a bit more on which specific ryu may have been taught, you can then start tracking the lineage, remember we know his teacher's name is Kaname Saito, who was head of a temple.

    So there you go. You have a lot of work cut out for you. Good luck. :adios:
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  3. The Kai is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 2:06pm


     Style: Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    J (do we use your name?)

    Is not Shorinji Kenpo it's own religon?

    Why would two okinawan arts be taught in a Japanese temple??

    And you'll teach the forms and the training that you learned, bit otherwise it's just too sacred to talk about??
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  4. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 2:24pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by The Kai
    J (do we use your name?)

    Is not Shorinji Kenpo it's own religon?

    Why would two okinawan arts be taught in a Japanese temple??

    And you'll teach the forms and the training that you learned, bit otherwise it's just too sacred to talk about??
    Yes, you can use my name, it's on my signature. :headbang:

    Shorinji Kenpo is not a religion, but was taught in the temples. Shorin (Japanese pronunciation of Shaolin) and Kenpo, as you know is same as chuan'fa. As for why Okinawan arts were being taught in the temple, I have no ideal why or how this could happen. Which is why I put it on UnknownLineage to figure it out. It doesn't make sense to me, but I am so tied down with AKA stuff, dojo stuff, upcoming tournaments and testings, that I don't have the time, nor motivation, to do that which should be done by the person asking.

    The whole "its too sacred" thing throws a red flag up in my head as well. I am going by the interview of him that I read.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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      #4
  5. Bishop is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 3:06am


     Style: Kajukenbo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, Shorinji Kempo is a religion that is a sect of Zen Buddhism. So it is unlikely that it would be taught in Shinto Temples.
    From the official Shorinji Kempo website:

    Shorinji Kempo is not only a martial art, but is also a registered religion in Japan. It was founded in 1947 by Rev. Doshin So (1911 - 1980), who mastered the martial arts forms from various Shaolin Zen masters during his 17 year stay in China, before & during World War two. He chose the name, Shorinji (which is the Japanese translation of the Chinese characters for the words, "Shaolin Temple") because he wanted to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple by training and cultivating both mind and body, along with the teachings of the Buddha. In 1951 he brought his masterpiece training back to the small town of Tadotsu, Japan and established his dojo to teach young people about the importance of physical and mental training by pointing out the crucial importance of "win and overcome oneself by unifying one's mind & body" rather than defeating the offender.

    Today, 1.5 million members are practicing world-wide in 32 countries and 3,000 dojos. Needless to say, it is the largest organization of its kind. Since his death in 1980, Yuuki So, (Doshin So's daughter), has been continuing her dad's vision & teachings as president of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization. Today, Shorinji Kempo is recognized not only as a martial art and a religion, but also for its generous donations and commitments to world charities. The Shorinji Kempo Organization headquarters are still located in Tadotsu on the island of Shikoku in Kagawa-Ken, Japan.
      #5
  6. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 6:45am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop
    Yes, Shorinji Kempo is a religion that is a sect of Zen Buddhism. So it is unlikely that it would be taught in Shinto Temples.
    From the official Shorinji Kempo website:

    Shorinji Kempo is not only a martial art, but is also a registered religion in Japan. It was founded in 1947 by Rev. Doshin So (1911 - 1980), who mastered the martial arts forms from various Shaolin Zen masters during his 17 year stay in China, before & during World War two. He chose the name, Shorinji (which is the Japanese translation of the Chinese characters for the words, "Shaolin Temple") because he wanted to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple by training and cultivating both mind and body, along with the teachings of the Buddha. In 1951 he brought his masterpiece training back to the small town of Tadotsu, Japan and established his dojo to teach young people about the importance of physical and mental training by pointing out the crucial importance of "win and overcome oneself by unifying one's mind & body" rather than defeating the offender.

    Today, 1.5 million members are practicing world-wide in 32 countries and 3,000 dojos. Needless to say, it is the largest organization of its kind. Since his death in 1980, Yuuki So, (Doshin So's daughter), has been continuing her dad's vision & teachings as president of the World Shorinji Kempo Organization. Today, Shorinji Kempo is recognized not only as a martial art and a religion, but also for its generous donations and commitments to world charities. The Shorinji Kempo Organization headquarters are still located in Tadotsu on the island of Shikoku in Kagawa-Ken, Japan.
    Well there you go...I learned something today. So, we have now eliminated that as a possible art he may have studied. Which leaves the questions, what Shinto temple would teach martial arts, and why would a Japanese temple teach Naha-te and Shuri-te? I could almost see them teaching one or the other, but both? Hmmmmmmmmm.......
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
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  7. The Kai is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 8:15am


     Style: Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, what are the Katas that are taught? That might be a starting point
      #7
  8. UnknownLineage is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 8:55am


     Style: Washin-ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by miguksaram
    Well there you go...I learned something today. So, we have now eliminated that as a possible art he may have studied. Which leaves the questions, what Shinto temple would teach martial arts, and why would a Japanese temple teach Naha-te and Shuri-te? I could almost see them teaching one or the other, but both? Hmmmmmmmmm.......
    I may have an answer for that one... it's tough, because to question what is taught would mean instant outcast... :(

    The kata is very much shuri-te. He only started teaching naha-te about 15 years ago so that his students could do them in traditional tournaments; and even then with shuri-te kihon. The washin-ryu kata are almost all shotokan versions of shuri-te with slight adjustments. But since it is much closer to shotokan than to okinawan shuri-te, I am imagining that his education of these kata came from some kind of funakoshi lineage.

    In addition to shotokan kata (through black-belt: taikyoku shodan, nidan, sandan, heian shodan through godan, naihanchi shodan, nidan, sandan), he also teaches a kata called gedan barai gedan zuki (which seems mostly like a kihon drill rather than kata), washin-ryu tenno kata (which i think is the main representative to his style and seems very chinese in origin and nothing like i've ever seen elsewhere), a series called gohonouke (shodan, nidan, sandan) and a couple of kata called matsukaze which also seem fairly unique to his style.

    I think the easiest way to identify a style is through their kihon which will show itself regardless of the kata. In his case, the kihon is VERY similar to shotokan with some "flourish" perhaps due to his competitive background in the early days of open competition.

    There is no question that he is an accomplished martial artist, a strong positie community influence and a generally good person. However, what seems to be a clear deception regarding his personal background, leads me to question my own authenticity as a martial artist under his system. Add to this that his students are not very good compared to him (huge skills gap) and that most of those who experience other more authentic styles and get some skills end up leaving, leaves me wondering if I am BULLSHIDO!!!
      #8
  9. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 10:49am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UnknownLineage
    I may have an answer for that one... it's tough, because to question what is taught would mean instant outcast... :(
    This is a major red flag in my book. If you are under scrutiny for simple wondering about the origins of your art and your teacher, there is something dreadfully wrong. Again, Japanese, for the most part, are ver proud people and lineage in their culture, as well as any Asian culture, is very important. Though they may be humble they are the first to tell you that they who taught them and who their teacher's teacher was and so on. This is why lineage, is taught in most Japanese and Okinawan schools.

    The kata is very much shuri-te. He only started teaching naha-te about 15 years ago so that his students could do them in traditional tournaments; and even then with shuri-te kihon. The washin-ryu kata are almost all shotokan versions of shuri-te with slight adjustments. But since it is much closer to shotokan than to okinawan shuri-te, I am imagining that his education of these kata came from some kind of funakoshi lineage.
    From looking at an old picture of him, I noticed he wore the USKA (Trias's organization) patch. It may be possible that he is a Shotokan stylist who learned Shuri-te while over here. Another possibility is that he may have been a Kosho Shorei Kempo stylist. They are Japanese in nature, but the system is based from Shuri-te origins, I believe. Another possibility is that his background stems in Goju-shore (hard soft) this would explain the mixture of forms. Just some more food for thought.

    In addition to shotokan kata (through black-belt: taikyoku shodan, nidan, sandan, heian shodan through godan, naihanchi shodan, nidan, sandan), he also teaches a kata called gedan barai gedan zuki (which seems mostly like a kihon drill rather than kata), washin-ryu tenno kata (which i think is the main representative to his style and seems very chinese in origin and nothing like i've ever seen elsewhere), a series called gohonouke (shodan, nidan, sandan) and a couple of kata called matsukaze which also seem fairly unique to his style.
    I would have to see research to see if those katas mentioned are found else where. They don't sound familiar at all and could be, as you said, unique to his school. If it is, I don't see a problem with that as long as he is truthful in saying that he was the one who made those katas up.

    I think the easiest way to identify a style is through their kihon which will show itself regardless of the kata. In his case, the kihon is VERY similar to shotokan with some "flourish" perhaps due to his competitive background in the early days of open competition.
    Or perhaps, as suggested above, he is a Shotokan person who tweaked the kihons.

    There is no question that he is an accomplished martial artist, a strong positie community influence and a generally good person. However, what seems to be a clear deception regarding his personal background, leads me to question my own authenticity as a martial artist under his system. Add to this that his students are not very good compared to him (huge skills gap) and that most of those who experience other more authentic styles and get some skills end up leaving, leaves me wondering if I am BULLSHIDO!!!
    We have seen in the past that there are a lot of "good" people in the martial arts. That doesn't resolve them from selling BS. GM Kim of the Jung Su Won is a good example. She is a positive influence in the community but basicly runs a cult as a martial arts club, in my opinoin. This guy could be doing the same for all we know. However the bottom line is this, if you are not happy with where you are, then you need to rethink your pirorities on your training. Perhaps it is time to move on. We can keep looking into this as much as possible to see what the truth is. I hope some of the suggestions given will help you in your pursuit of the truth.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
      #9
  10. G.R. Bug is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 8:10pm


     Style: None, at present

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For what it's worth, I have seen (in a couple of printed sources) a kata called Matsukaze that was supposedly a Japanese version of Rohai, a Shuri-te lineage kata. There's an issue of "Karate Illustrated" circa 1975 that has Bill Ryusaki on the cover and includes a step-by-step photo breakdown of a kata called Matsukaze. If anyone's interested, I can drag out my magazines and see if I can determine the exact issue.

    Also, I recall once seeing a Shito-ryu book auctioned on e-Bay that supposedly included three versions of Rohai -- assuming the Shito-ryu style truly includes three different Rohai's, maybe that helps explain why Washin-ryu has multiple Matsukaze kata.
    Last edited by G.R. Bug; 8/03/2005 8:12pm at .
      #10
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