Just another WT(CH) thread

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 7/23/2005 10:45pm

Originally Posted by uAq

it sounds like u didnt fight a wing chun fighter...

someone that took wing chun for 2 or 3 years and is doing it for a profession is a con artist... and probably was being taught by a con artist cuz we have alot of that going on in the wing chun world and in maryland alone.

and someone that "pulls wing chun kung fu" name out the a$$ doesnt know wing chun....and probably is a con

once again u didnt fight sh*t!

go fight someone that !!!!!KNOWS!!!!! wing chun and tell me was up!

First off, learn to read. It was two different people. ONE who really did go to a Wing Chun school (he was my neighbor and we carpooled to our gym once he found out he took WC at the place where I was taking aikido). I didn't say he did it for a living, I said he had 2 - 3 years of training.

The other was just a liar, I'm fairly sure. My standard humility aside, that guy was a loudmouth dojo crasher, making lame "I could beat you if I poked ur eyes" arguments, and I hit him very hard the first time I got to spar him openly, and he didn't come back.

**uAq** · Posted On: 7/23/2005 10:49pm

ok so u fought "a"(just one) wing chun fighter and won...

cuz the other man didnt kno wing chun...

anyone else?

and any wing chun fighters want to tell there fights with other arts plz do cuz i wanna hear this.

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 7/23/2005 11:01pm

Well, the second guy was so poor at fighting PERIOD I hope for the sake of WC that he'd never trained in it. I mean, he was the kind of guy, you can jab right between his hands and hit him in the face. He also talked all the time about all the stuff his long lost dad would do and how he was going to come back with his money and they'd all be rich. He would also talk about being French Royalty, and how he played varsity football in Chicago (but he couldn't get on our tiny 26 man rural midwestern team). As far as martial arts, he said he was "6th dan in 5 dragon Kempo" and one of "six white kids ever to be Jr. Olympians in full contact karate" (not an olympic sport). So, he was basically a complete douchebag.

My neighbor was a pretty scrappy kid, and older then me, but he was 120 pounds lighter then me - so he gets a moral victory just for trying to spar me.

Both of these experiences were clear back in HS, although the tale-teller didn't move to town until the start of senior year (so he was 17, 18 making these claims, not a 'kid')

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 7/23/2005 11:02pm

First of all conan, WT is not WC. I think that has been coved ad infinity on this Board......

WT starts with Camp fire building, then works its way up from there. It has a jab, hook, rabbit punch, palm, knifehand, spade, hammer fist, Lifting punch(uppercut) Finger jab (thumb, four finger), and elbows/knees, plus sevral kicks. It covers ground fighting, the clinch, breaking tackles, escapes from basic _bars. You have no idea what you are talking about....

The question is what do you do after your MMA get's you really good in a few years? Do you do the same thing for the next 20 years? Pretty Boring.

WT offers more and more complex things to build on. The Problem comes when beginners get the complex things and not the basic Boxing/ Grappling.

As I said, the problem arises when Camp fire skills are used to build power plants, it results in a melt down.

Another concept in WT is to limit injury in training. Most people do not have the stamina to get broken up sparring all the time. Constant sparring and simulated combat will make you pretty good, pretty fast, but at what cost? If the point is to avoid injury in the "street", what sense does it make to get injured in training. How many knee and elbow injurys does the average BJJ school have? How much pain killer does the average MMA school consume/

As to my sloppy example, you obviously missed the point. and as to weight training, this may be fine, but how is that linked to the muscle memory of a fighting event? It needs to be linked to the adrenile stress, or it doesn't help.

Another point...OK. Most people come to WT from other martial arts. They have learned to build the camp fire and they want more. This has always been the case, going all the way back to the beginning. So alot of _ing __un is suplemental to hone a set of fighting skills from basic Kick Boxing. When someone starts with -ing --un first, they may have to work longer at it, but people with a basic set of skills see great improvement.

As to the number of years to teach thing. EBMAS and other WT familys have a thing called a working group. Since head Si-fus travel around they have working groups in many citys. These groups are run by students, and so they may be run by someone with only a few years experience. Since these students get a seminar weekend 3 or four times a year, and then practice what they remember, they sometimes make a few minor mistakes. These get corrected every few months in seminar.

So when looking at the number of years a WT has, you have to ask, was that at Si-fu Emins private school in LA or was it in a Working group. There is a big difference.

:qright1:

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 7/23/2005 11:12pm

Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

First of all conan, WT is not WC. I think that has been coved ad infinity on this Board......

WT starts with Camp fire building, then works its way up from there. It has a jab, hook, rabbit punch, palm, knifehand, spade, hammer fist, Lifting punch(uppercut) Finger jab (thumb, four finger), and elbows/knees, plus sevral kicks. It covers ground fighting, the clinch, breaking tackles, escapes from basic _bars. You have no idea what you are talking about....

The question is what do you do after your MMA get's you really good in a few years? Do you do the same thing for the next 20 years? Pretty Boring.

WT offers more and more complex things to build on. The Problem comes when beginners get the complex things and not the basic Boxing/ Grappling.

As I said, the problem arises when Camp fire skills are used to build power plants, it results in a melt down.

Another concept in WT is to limit injury in training. Most people do not have the stamina to get broken up sparring all the time. Constant sparring and simulated combat will make you pretty good, pretty fast, but at what cost? If the point is to avoid injury in the "street", what sense does it make to get injured in training. How many knee and elbow injurys does the average BJJ school have? How much pain killer does the average MMA school consume/

As to my sloppy example, you obviously missed the point. and as to weight training, this may be fine, but how is that linked to the muscle memory of a fighting event? It needs to be linked to the adrenile stress, or it doesn't help.

Another point...OK. Most people come to WT from other martial arts. They have learned to build the camp fire and they want more. This has always been the case, going all the way back to the beginning. So alot of _ing __un is suplemental to hone a set of fighting skills from basic Kick Boxing. When someone starts with -ing --un first, they may have to work longer at it, but people with a basic set of skills see great improvement.

As to the number of years to teach thing. EBMAS and other WT familys have a thing called a working group. Since head Si-fus travel around they have working groups in many citys. These groups are run by students, and so they may be run by someone with only a few years experience. Since these students get a seminar weekend 3 or four times a year, and then practice what they remember, they sometimes make a few minor mistakes. These get corrected every few months in seminar.

So when looking at the number of years a WT has, you have to ask, was that at Si-fu Emins private school in LA or was it in a Working group. There is a big difference.

:qright1:

The rest of us could give a **** which two letters Wing Chun starts with, seriously dude.

So your own personal WC rationalization is that you are saving stuff for later so that you can ration your learning out over the years?

And your rationalization for not sparring hard is that it will make you good fast, but you could get hurt?

My counter to that is that infrequent sparring will make you good never, and it could get you killed. Not to mention, people that spar more have more control, more focus, more intensity, and more sense regarding their own abilities and limits then people that only do it once a month or once a quarter. Also, sparring builds stamina for sparring, so people that spar often quickly cease to be "most people"

**alex** · Posted On: 7/24/2005 12:40am

I honestly have better **** to do with my time than visit any more WC dojos. Im done with that. I like visiting schools because I like martial arts and enjoy seeing how other people fight/train, but my experience with wing chun/wing tsun is pretty much always-

too deadly to spar, doesnt want to hurt me with their phat skills, etc etc. And im too nice to start a fight.

bullshit from the word go (I kid you not but in one class I was watching where the instructor turned up 40 minutes late the first thing he did, right in front of me, is berate another student because he used to train in europe somewhere and his lineage was ****)

But I think the worst thing about wing chun/tsun is the fucking snide self righteous bullshit atmosphere. you can smell it when you walk in, the "our martial art is fucking DEADLY" attitude that every single WC student ive met gives off. and it gets fucking tiring. Sure I could go into one of these classes and start a fight with one of the pasty geeks (this is coming from a guy who is 5'8 and 150 pounds soaking wet) and **** their **** up but for what? to get charges laid against me? I get to spar people who know what the **** they are doing and are mostly amateur/pro fighters of the top level every day. theres no point wasting time with fuckwits whos bil gee or whatever is apparently going to make my guts explode.

what the **** was this rant for? I forget. oh yeah, fingers up to you WC bastards

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 7/24/2005 12:55am

Don't strawman me with that ****, if you wanna be ignorant then fine, but WT and WC are different. Should I think all JJ is the same, or all karate? Names means something.....I do EBMAS anyway, and there is only one way to spell that.....:) :icon_cycl :laughing6

WT starts with basic Kickboxing and single arm chi sau, and after some drills with partners we do spar, and then more drills and then more sparring....

But we don't require Heavy Sparring for everyone. Some people just wanna have fun.

"My counter to that is that infrequent sparring will make you good never, and it could get you killed. Not to mention, people that spar more have more control, more focus, more intensity, and more sense regarding their own abilities and limits then people that only do it once a month or once a quarter. "

I agree, sparring is great. What else you got. Personally, I don't think most people want to go to work with black eyes, broken noses, taped up fingers, or shoulder slings every week 'cause they had to heavy spar to get redy for the "Deadly Streets". and most people don't want knee surgery every year or head trama either....

Get you killed doing what? Picking fights? You can get killed doing any fighting, and so real fighting should be avoided. If you cann't avoid it, then it means someone is gonna try to kill you anyway, so you fight with what you got.....

"Also, sparring builds stamina for sparring, so people that spar often quickly cease to be "most people"

Yes, fine, stamina, and the ability to take a punch, timing and control of distance, reading body language, applying power to knock someone down, I get it....we do that. What else you got? Anything? Is it all sparring?

"But I think the worst thing about wing chun/tsun is the fucking snide self righteous bullshit atmosphere"

ya, I hate that, and it only comes from the _ing __un people, the rest of the Martial Arts world is so Humble, never claiming to have all the answers...and why wouldn't they want to spar with any old stranger of the street, who they know nothing aboout and have no need to prove anything too....youbeen to a WT school? Where?

**MrMcFu** · Posted On: 7/24/2005 12:58am

Hell yeah. Another proper _ing _un thread. Keep rationalizing.

**I aint punchy!?** · Posted On: 7/24/2005 1:11am

Originally Posted by AkiraMusashi

1. Give me a fucking break. WC is a flame retardant match. Lack of footwork (no lateral movement), lots of bullshit manouevers. The complete lack of a jab, no ground work, Chi sau, I can go on for days.

The only city you're powering is the one you built with Legos.

2. Train your reflexes to do what? Fok sau an incoming strike? Any MA should train your reflexes for such. WC takes forever to become combat applicable. MMA doesn't.

3. IF fighting isn't done with the training moves.. then why do them? Why not train to fight and stop wasting time? 95% of WC you'll never use in a fight.

The only things I use are the Jams, the elbow parry to break the fist, the thrust kick and arrow strike. I might occasionally throw in a shin blast to disrupt the opp's timing or gan sau a hook to just induce pain, but out of the 4 years of WC I've taken, I could have learned these things within one year and used them effectively in combat. Period. I don't need Chi sau, Lap sau, trapping, the 3 lame forms, the dummy or any inane impractical combat "defense" moves. As for your adductors, you can also use progressive resistance from weight lifting to achieve a better effect.

Ti faccio culo cosi e tuo WC merda. :icon_cool

-Cari Saluti

Heheh nice... and good points here.

I personally like Chun but the quality of instruction is highly variable. I also think MMA is a damn good idea and it comes down to this ---

MMA is a fight-focused 'style' that incorporates things that work based on spars/fights and grows that way. Using this approach you can't go to far wrong, and the quality will be high, especially for people who are training to fight in the ring. I personally believe that many traditional martial arts probably started off like this in some way or other, e.g. Arnis was kept real by hundreds of years of having to accept challenges from people as soon as people realised that you were 'expert' at Arnis. This kept Arnis people motivated to train hard and use stuff that worked.

Now having said this, Wing Chun has a high degree of variability out there in terms of quality. Clubs that have little sparring will be crap -- and by that I dont mean just point sparring -- it has to be sparring with intensity and aliveness and a certain degree of injury. Only after doing this for quite a while will you get the idea for the Chun 'fighting style'.

The basis of the Wing Chun fighting style is this -- put simply the aim of WC is to defeat an opponents guard. By guard I mean someone with fists in the dukes-up position. All of the hands stuff in chi sau etc etc is simply there as a drill to teach you to deflect whatever is happening as you are stepping in on an opponent. Once in you can hit, or lock up with the body in some way (e.g. arm, elbow drag, or foot trap), sweep or throw. Short punches are emphasised because these can cover the person as they are walking into the opponent, but they are not the only punch. Any punch is possible but some are better to throw at a guard. Same goes with kicks. There is no ground work in the system (as far as I know) but theres plenty of stand up grappling.

I did a survey of WC sites on the net... the quality was highly variable and I doubt many of them seemed to understand this basic fact about WC.

As far as lateral footwork goes... there is nothing wrong with doing this... it is just that at point blank fighting range stepping sideways is bad.

PS:Typical WC (e.g. VT) has plenty of jabs... if anything it suffers from a lack of a cross.

**The_Mirth** · Posted On: 7/24/2005 1:16am

We should be like that town where the words walmart has been banned from being used in town meetings except for _ing _un threads.

I like _ing _un a lot of schools are crappy I happen to think mine is fine but I have no illusions about going over to the MMA gym down the road and owning them all up because I'm teh d34dly.

Isn't there a Newbie FAQ that states you arn't allowed to say you've got "the real _ing _un"?