Just another WT(CH) thread

***JohnnyCache*** · Posted On: 7/28/2005 2:32am

Wow. I guess TKD really is teh deadly. That must have been mortifying.

**Darting Fingers** · Posted On: 7/28/2005 2:33am

Originally Posted by I aint punchy!?

I keep saying this: WC has striking, and stand-up grappling including takedowns (sweeps and throws) but not ground-work. Takedowns are meant to make the person fall badly so they cant get up, break a bone on the way down (e.g. elbow hyperextension and sweep) or can be taken out with strikes when they are down (kick to the head). This is traditional WC, but perhaps not the typical WC/WT/VT stuff that you see around the place which tends to focus on a parrallel stance and chain punching.

The kicking and stricking elements I was talking about are pretty much just some boxing style punches and round kicks thats it. But the clinch work is sub-par to other systems and needs a helping hand.

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 8/13/2005 3:04pm

well, I finallly took some still photos to give an example of the elbow to neck strike I was refering too. I was trying to give an example of why sparring can be difficult to prove a style works or not if both partys are not willing to be honest about the damage that can be achieved at full contact level.

In the example I mentioned, a guy tried to tackle low, and it was telegraphed so I easily pushed his head lower and dropped an elbow to the base of skull. I said stop, as anything further would not be realistic without him having to continue fighting while suffering from the neck damage.

He felt that strike would never hurt him. I and all his friends agreed he was fininshed at that point. I showed him and he said he had seen that not work in UFC and refused to believe it could work. I pointed out that in UFC I had seen strikes to upper back and scapula, but never to the skull/neck joint. I had just done it to the target, so it obviously could be done. I also pointed out that in origional UFC you were required to pay damages to the other guy after the fight, so people didn't try to break necks but instread tried to not do any lethal damage.

If I had not said stop, I would still have had time to sprawl or even slam him face first into the floor, followed with knee drops.

My point was only that it is hard to communicate these things, and that fighting for your life is different than fighting in a sport.

I am not saying I can not be taken down by a good grappler. I am not saying this move works against a more upright takedown attempt.

my demo partner just possed, he has no skill at take downs. :5sonar:
now back to the regular flame war or the Megathread.... :new_multi

edit: not sure why these won't appear, they did earlier.....

**Bard of DorAr** · Posted On: 8/13/2005 5:37pm

I'm way late, but to address what was said in the VERY first post with the Wing Chun/MT and Knife/Sword comparison.

The Knife only wins if you sneak up and gack the guy in surprise or the other guy is incompetent...

That said, Stabbing someone from stealth with a knife doesn't really relate to knife fighting skills as anyone can do it if they know the stealth side or how to hide well.

That said, you just claimed your art is worthless.

Thanks, I didn't think that low of Wing Chun, but you don't help your case.

**Qi Splash** · Posted On: 8/14/2005 4:26pm

Originally Posted by Bard of DorAr

The Knife only wins if you sneak up and gack the guy in surprise or the other guy is incompetent...

That said, Stabbing someone from stealth with a knife doesn't really relate to knife fighting skills as anyone can do it if they know the stealth side or how to hide well.

That said, you just claimed your art is worthless.

Thanks, I didn't think that low of Wing Chun, but you don't help your case.

But it is illustrative of the belief that certain martial "arts" give you skills that circumvent the need for common sense fighting. It is romantic and illogical. If I do WC, under certain circumstances, I can use structure and principle instead of "stuggle" to subdue my opponent.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 8/14/2005 5:19pm

Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

well, I finallly took some still photos to give an example of the elbow to neck strike I was refering too. I was trying to give an example of why sparring can be difficult to prove a style works or not if both partys are not willing to be honest about the damage that can be achieved at full contact level.

Basically, you think the guy's not being honest with you about 'what can be achieved', because he refused to accept your theory about what would happen if you went full contact.

You could always try sparring full contact. That way there's no need to be 'honest with each other' about what 'can be achieved'.

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 8/14/2005 5:25pm

Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

well, I finallly took some still photos to give an example of the elbow to neck strike I was refering too. I was trying to give an example of why sparring can be difficult to prove a style works or not if both partys are not willing to be honest about the damage that can be achieved at full contact level.

In the example I mentioned, a guy tried to tackle low, and it was telegraphed so I easily pushed his head lower and dropped an elbow to the base of skull. I said stop, as anything further would not be realistic without him having to continue fighting while suffering from the neck damage.

He felt that strike would never hurt him. I and all his friends agreed he was fininshed at that point. I showed him and he said he had seen that not work in UFC and refused to believe it could work. I pointed out that in UFC I had seen strikes to upper back and scapula, but never to the skull/neck joint. I had just done it to the target, so it obviously could be done. I also pointed out that in origional UFC you were required to pay damages to the other guy after the fight, so people didn't try to break necks but instread tried to not do any lethal damage.

If I had not said stop, I would still have had time to sprawl or even slam him face first into the floor, followed with knee drops.

My point was only that it is hard to communicate these things, and that fighting for your life is different than fighting in a sport.

I am not saying I can not be taken down by a good grappler. I am not saying this move works against a more upright takedown attempt.

my demo partner just possed, he has no skill at tack downs. :5sonar:
now back to the regular flame war or the Megathread.... :new_multi

edit: not sure why these won't appear, they did earlier.....

Anyone see the current issue of Inside Kung Fu?? Its got a pic of Emin doing something similar to defend a takedown "a la grappling" (exact words!!).

**alittlebird** · Posted On: 8/14/2005 7:00pm

I also pointed out that in origional UFC you were required to pay damages to the other guy after the fight, so people didn't try to break necks but instread tried to not do any lethal damage.

I have never heard of such a rule in the first UFC. Source? Even if true, as we've established already, there have been dozens of events with looser rules than the original ufc, with lots of TMA and wing chun participants, in which nothing remotly close to what you describe ever happened. Not to mention a large number of events in Brazil before 1990 that there are sparse written records of.

Frankly, the image you posted looks even worse than what I had imagined from your descriptions. Obviously you're convinced that a single downward elbow will kill or incapacitate an opponent most of the time, so I won't try to argue that with you any further. I can only suggest that if you want to actually test your theory, you should find someone who's good at takedowns, your local college wrestling team would be ideal since we're talking single and double legs here, and get a feel for how someone competent would shoot a leg takedown. I think you'll find it quite different than defending the shot of a doughboy with no takedown skills.

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 8/15/2005 1:07am

Man you just keep proving what I am talking about little bird! It has the potential to do serious damage, just as the takedown has potential to take me down. In this particular case, I also had redirected him into the floor with my other hand. I stopped it because to continue would be unrealistic. He would have gotten to fight on without any injury in a situation where the strike would have caused some. Even his friends that watched agreed he was beat. But he just wouldn't hear it. If I continued I would have done more elbows to the neck, and knee dropped to skull and neck.

ofcoarse it is theoritical! But the other guy, in this situation, was using the UFC as his be all proof. The fact that I had just beaten him he was ignoreing. You guys keep ignoring the fact that everyone in the room except him agreed I had won. You guys also keep quoting the UFC as your be all proof. It ignores the facts of the specific event in favor of the statistical record of a Sport. This is exactly the point Iwas trying to make about sparring and communicating about it afterwards.

I should try it full contact? So I gotta try to break his neck and cripple him to prove it works or doesn't? what if I does work? and what does going against college or high school wrestlers have to do with it? I am talking about one situation while sparring with a walk in to my gym, where I clearly beat a guy and he wasn't intersted in understanding why. I am not trying to validate the move agianst atheletes that train takedowns 5 hours a day everyday.

I don't think I ever said It was the perfect move or that it always worked but I don't feel like re-reading all these posts.

I have an idea, lay down on the floor and let a friend do an pointed elbow drop to the back of your neck, with full power and body weight, in an honest attempt to break bone, and tell us about it.

:new_blueg

**Dr._Tzun_Tzu** · Posted On: 8/15/2005 1:44am

Originally Posted by EternalRage

Anyone see the current issue of Inside Kung Fu?? Its got a pic of Emin doing something similar to defend a takedown "a la grappling" (exact words!!).

Different move. That is a knee to neck/chin, while pulling down on the head, when someone grabs your leg. This is then followed by a elbow to temple and a stomping kick to back of their knee.

If the takedown is still successful, this postion also leads into a counter attack from on the back on the ground.

side note: notice that in each picture set, Sifu Casey does a different attack while Si-Fu Boztepe begins with the same prefighting posture and same hand/ leg attack. The attackers move then dictates Emins responce. First a kick from Si-fus right, then a kick from coming in from the left, then a grabbed leg. If the leg was not grabbed, then it could be just a straight kick, then to knee to face....this is the principle of WT, one start for all defenses.

are my photos posting? i just see x's

:5usaribbo