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  1. Goldust is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 5:04pm


     Style: Submission Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pardoe also had a considerable weight advantage as well. As I recall he had to be about 230lbs. I doubt that Weit weighed much more than 170lbs.
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 8:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Aaww, another Wing thread turned into a grapplling discussion.....

    I brought up the knife only because you must consider it as a possiblity, a surprize they may have in store for you. So hugging them or using you head and torso as primary weapons seems dangerous.

    My example of the tackle counter was to express the difficultys in exchanging techniques without causeing injury, to learn about them. One side with the closed mind refuses to believe in a possibility, the other is not willing to attempt to hurt someone to prove their point. That was what I was presenting an examplel of. Why I only spar with people I trust, not strangers. Funny, I should have guessed I would get the same responce on the internet.

    from what I have read, a decent grappler will never get kicked, never get punched hard enough on the way in, will never get beat by boxing because they cross train, never loose to anything but another decent grappler. They also never get injurys in this training, because it makes their muscles stronger to absorb the impacts. You guys sound exactly like WC guys usually do. "I am the best, fear my deadly take down skills"

    also, I quit usiing Anti-grappling on this foum because you all don't even get it. It is a perspective, not a super technique. It is just a perspective of trying to return to a striking vantage and to not try to wrestle a wrestler, as they have more skills in that. Especially in dealing with counters to basic grappling. Much of the program is like basic JJ or wrestling, but with continued strikes.

    from Jonny, "Edit: BTW, that "WAAAAAAH I GUESS THERE IS NO STOPPING GRAPPLING EVER ANY WAY AT ALL" **** IS a strawman. You'd think you'd know what it meant, since you're so fond of accusing other people of it."

    No, that was sarcassim or a Baited question, Strawman is when you defeat a parrallel agruement but not the actuall arguement. Anytime someone defeats a WC thing, it is Knocking down straw, becuase we at WT are different, and at EBMAS even more different. Conan keeps spitting on WC which is fine, I could help him in that but I don't want to start a lineage war.

    In his picture of Wialliam Cheung, you can see that he himself is doing the wrong arm positions for being on that side of the dummy if it is to be a kick defense. Since he is on front leg he is doing kick defense. That arm postion can be used for other things, but one would be on the back leg, generally speaking.

    It makes a good picture though. WC had articles in every Martial art magazine all threw the 1970's and 80's. Inside Kung Fu did a couple everymonth!! Imagine how many bad photograophs like that where used as Instructional aids, imagine how many con men learned from these magazines and started schools. It is no wonder there is so much crap out there.

    WT schools must have seminars from top Si-fus a few times a year. Every student trains with the top guys. You think we don't have people that know take downs to practice with? Cool, your loss not mine.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 7/25/2005 9:05pm at .
  3. dakotajudo is offline
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    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 9:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    One side with the closed mind refuses to believe in a possibility, the other is not willing to attempt to hurt someone to prove their point.
    The other side, also with the closed mind, refuses to believe in the possibility that what they think will hurt, doesn't actually hurt so much.

    And just a bit of advice - if you're going to make the point that you've got a college degree, please take the time to proofread.

    It's hard to take you seriously with all the errors. It's not so much the mistakes themselves - everybody lets a few slip through - it's that it appears you don't take the time to think through your argument. Slow down, take a breath, post a little later.


    Now, back to Pardoel/Weit.

    Watched, slow as I could. Not sure if he's out after the first, pretty definite he's out by the second (Clyde Gentry, in No Holds Barred says it was the third). The rest were just icing.

    However, it appears that Pardoel didn't make contact with the elbow on the first couple shots - it looked more mostly upper arm.

    Weit's head was turned and pushed sideways by the second strike. Now, some of the older literature suggests that boxing knockouts occur after a similar kind of movement alters neural activity in the recticular activating system in the brain stem.

    But can't find any follow-up information for the match, so can't rule out a concussion. Weit had won the 1994 World Muay Thai Kickboxing Championship 11 days prior (according to Gentry) - it is possible he had an asymptomatic concussion, that would have made him more susceptible to a knockout.
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 10:20pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    from what I have read, a decent grappler will never get kicked, never get punched hard enough on the way in, will never get beat by boxing because they cross train, never loose to anything but another decent grappler. They also never get injurys in this training, because it makes their muscles stronger to absorb the impacts. You guys sound exactly like WC guys usually do. "I am the best, fear my deadly take down skills"
    As a former Wing Chun practitioner I'll be the first to admit that both sides that are arguing DO sound similar. But the difference is that in my years of WC and martial arts, I have seen many WC people get thrown down and submitted (I've even done it myself several times). But in all the UFCs and K1s I watched (definitely not all of them but a fair amount), I have yet to see anyone stop a takedown and KO the other dude with "a kick to the hip" or "elbow to the back of the head."

    also, I quit usiing Anti-grappling on this foum because you all don't even get it. It is a perspective, not a super technique. It is just a perspective of trying to return to a striking vantage and to not try to wrestle a wrestler, as they have more skills in that. Especially in dealing with counters to basic grappling. Much of the program is like basic JJ or wrestling, but with continued strikes.
    Anti-grappling =
    1.) Bullshit marketed in response to the grappling fad in NHB/MMA events.
    2.) Crap that was in the system for "just in case" where an opponent would take you to the ground and start submitting you (rare in kung fu except that dog style or whatever).

    Either case it doesn't work. Mainly because most of grappling can counter that **** in a heartbeat. Believe me, I've tried the bogus Anti-grapple I was taught and I got pounded by my BJJ friend.

    In his picture of Wialliam Cheung, you can see that he himself is doing the wrong arm positions for being on that side of the dummy if it is to be a kick defense. Since he is on front leg he is doing kick defense. That arm postion can be used for other things, but one would be on the back leg, generally speaking.
    Good ol Cheungy's doin a quan sao there. Not a kan sao. Its applications you can debate till ur blue in the face I don't care. Emin beat his ass and then chickened out in fighting the Gracies with his "ehhh i'm too deadly for the ring" bullshit

    Rickson by armbar!
    Last edited by EternalRage; 7/25/2005 10:24pm at .
  5. alittlebird is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 11:04pm


     Style: Judo, a tiny bit of bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You think we don't have people that know take downs to practice with? Cool, your loss not mine.
    You know, maybe Emin Boztepe does know a thing or two about takedowns, not that you'd know it from watching him roll around like a schoolgirl with the other old wing chun master.

    But one thing we can be sure of after reading your descriptions of takedown techniques and 'antigrappling' on this thread - you know less about takedowns than a middleschooler at his first wrestling practice. I can't decide whether this is because you don't have anyone who knows anything about grappling to train with, or because your head is so far up your own ass you managed to retain nothing from your alleged training with these grapplers.

    Or was it that you destroyed their cerebellums and brain stems so quickly that you never got a chance to learn anything from them? :icon_geek
  6. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 11:12pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    No, that was sarcassim or a Baited question, Strawman is when you defeat a parrallel agruement but not the actuall arguement. Anytime someone defeats a WC thing, it is Knocking down straw, becuase we at WT are different, and at EBMAS even more different. Conan keeps spitting on WC which is fine, I could help him in that but I don't want to start a lineage war.
    You might have been asking a 'sacrassim' laden Baited Question, but a strawman is when the arguer attacks a position not actually held by the other debator. This INCLUDES the exaggeration of one facet of an argument or position to an extreme. What you did is almost exactly example two here.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 11:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice link, added it to bookmarks, thanks.
  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 11:45pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man, you guys just don't have any dialoge in you. I mentioned one single event, one single movement, and you turn it into all this crap talking.

    "The other side, also with the closed mind, refuses to believe in the possibility that what they think will hurt, doesn't actually hurt so much."

    I never argued it was an easy move or failsafe, I wasn't even using it as an example of a @#$ANTi-GrapPL%3*ing, I was using it as why School owners don't spar with just anybody. It is obvious that without enough power or aim the move will not work. The other guys on here are argueing it is impossible to do with enough power. People break bricks and boards with this strike, if they intend to, so it is not impossible. I guess since no one has done it on TV it must not work.

    I have been very humble in my dialog, I am being open minded and receptive. I can ignore the ignorance about WC vs WT. I can even work on proof reading.

    Now I read that no one has ever been knocked down with a kick?
  9. DunDunna is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 3:41am


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    this thread actually just gave me diarrhea.
  10. Ronin is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/26/2005 6:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Shi Ja Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    WTF ???

    Attacking the brain stem ???
    Elbows to the back of the neck ??
    Kicks to the hip ??

    Are we working on a fiction novel here ?

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