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  1. Samfoo is offline
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    Knee + Head = Black Eye * 2

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 1:32pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just read all nine pages. Not a single new thing has been brought up. This thread sucks.
  2. The_Mirth is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 1:56pm


     Style: WC, Shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think we've touched on the _ing _un's salami weakness before, so that's new.
  3. Samfoo is offline
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    Knee + Head = Black Eye * 2

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 2:12pm

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     Style: Judo, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I suppose that's a valid point. So nine pages, and we've finally discovered the weakness to teh real _ing _un...
  4. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 2:59pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    second, deep in the brain is about 2 inches or less, not that "deep"
    How deep the brain is (and, if you looked at the MRI, about half an inch?) doesn't really matter. Unless you strike hard enough to fracture the skull, the damage caused by a head blow is going to be caused by the sudden acceleration of the skull relative to the brain - it's the skull striking the brain that causes many brain injuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    In my example, as the attacker dropped I put my left hand on the top of his head to push myself away and too side, and placed my elbow directly onto the joint between the skull and vertabra.
    Again, look at the MRI. The articulation between the occipital bone and the atlas vertebra (C1) is under a fairly thick layer of muscle.

    This is an important point - one that struck me in a previous thread (when I did a PubMed search on soccer concussions).

    A lot of head damage comes not from the blow itself, but from the rotation or hyperflexion of the neck. This can cause a tear at the base of the skull, leading to bleeding and ultimately death. This is in addition to the acceleration/deceleration forces that cause concussions.

    A strong neck can prevent or limit this kind of damage - by limiting the speed at which the head is moved by impact.

    And what kind of people have strong necks?

    Boxers do, from taking shots. And grapplers do, because the head is used as a tool almost as much as anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    skip the brainstem, ceralbellum if injured,

    Observed Problems:

    Loss of ability to coordinate fine movements.
    Loss of ability to walk.
    Inability to reach out and grab objects.
    Tremors.
    Dizziness (Vertigo).
    Slurred Speech (Scanning Speech).
    Inability to make rapid movements.
    Well, you did start with the brainstem.

    But, to cause enough damage to cerebellum to provoke such symptoms, you need to hit hard enough to cause a concussion. I'm not so sure an elbow dropped on a shooter is going to be sufficient. Simply making contact with the back of the skull is not enough.

    I need to review the Pardoel/Weit UFC knockout - was it a direct blow, or was there a torsional component?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Meager, as in a competent grappler, i assume you mean the fake high, then drop in low with head back and upper body still vertical?
    That's one version of a shot, but there are others. For example, an arm-drag set up is probably safer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    you can try to thrust kick the hip/thigh area, or lift punch under the chin on the throat. You can just grab their head and put a thumb in each eye and twist, you can neck crank. You can also go with it roll back and leg hooks or open guard....there are alot of things. What do you do? go straight to the ground?
    You can try all those things, but what will most likely happen, against a real shot that's set up properly, is that you go straight to the ground.
  5. alittlebird is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:20pm


     Style: Judo, a tiny bit of bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need to review the Pardoel/Weit UFC knockout - was it a direct blow, or was there a torsional component?
    Well for one thing it was not a one shot KO. It was several elbows in quick succession, to a target that was largely immobilized against the mat, with a lot of weight behind them. They were also not to the back fo the head, they were to the front/side IIRC. The KO was from the brain bouncing around in the skull like usual IMO.
  6. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:26pm

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     Style: Kyokushin Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You'll have a tough time doing anything to the brain stem with anything less than some kind of weapon, preferably a gun. The brainstem's virtually in the middle of your cranial cavity, and has ample protection. dakotajudo has some valid points as well.

    Virtually all of those videos look extremely staged. The main problem I see is the guys he's tossing around are fellow WCers. Beating up on a WCer is like beating on a cripple with mental problems: they're fleshy punching bags waiting for you to pummel. (Making a joke, btw)

    The main interest here is style vs style, or a style being used in a real-life encounter to effectiveness.
  7. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:29pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    ok, MRI, it also looks like the head was cut off too, or he has a very long neck.
    I'd guess she - women tend to have relatively longer necks.
  8. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Meager, as in a competent grappler, i assume you mean the fake high, then drop in low with head back and upper body still vertical? These guys are real good and real fast, no doubt about it, and they can take a few punches coming in I am sure. you can try to thrust kick the hip/thigh area, or lift punch under the chin on the throat. You can just grab their head and put a thumb in each eye and twist, you can neck crank. You can also go with it roll back and leg hooks or open guard....there are alot of things. What do you do? go straight to the ground?

    Dr. of nothing, it is just a username. I did earn 206 units at a University and I have a Bachalor of Science in Botany/Biology.
    You're mistaken if you think a grappler will just come in and immediately go for the takedown. Most grapplers cross train in some standup (unlike most Chunners they recognize the need to fill in gaps in their training). So they will hit you. Punch you. Kick you. Before they go for the takedown. You wouldn't close the initial distance by just waltzing in - why do you assume a grappler will?

    And although the in-fighting range is supposedly WC's bread and butter, all grapplers need is a split second to redirect your focus (either by smacking the **** out of you or faking something or other) and then you're on your ass and not a single goddamn antigrapple will save you.
  9. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    Beating up on a WCer is like beating on a cripple with mental problems: they're fleshy punching bags waiting for you to pummel. (Making a joke, btw)
    You didn't have to clarify. We know you're being serious.
  10. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2005 3:38pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alittlebird
    Well for one thing it was not a one shot KO. It was several elbows in quick succession, to a target that was largely immobilized against the mat, with a lot of weight behind them. They were also not to the back fo the head, they were to the front/side IIRC. The KO was from the brain bouncing around in the skull like usual IMO.
    There were multiple elbows, but I seem to remember Weit was pretty much KTFO after the first one.

    It's the side part I'm interested in - I remember an article about boxing knockouts, from when I was in high school, that suggested knockouts where caused by torsion the brainstem. Hiitting the jaw just right causes the head to twist. The twist is what causes the knockout, not the impact of the brain on the skull.

    Since Weit's head was on the mat, I'm not sure how much brain bouncing there was (although I do wonder how much his skull flexed).
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