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  1. Kintama is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2005 11:54pm


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    History according to the TKD Tutor

    History re-written...again.
    There are so many inaccuracies and things wrong with this page, that I don't know where to start....here's one to give you a taste...1st paragraph:
    Originally, two Chinese characters were used to depict the martial art of "kara hand" or "the hand of the Kara Kingdom." The Japanese pronounced these two characters as "Karate" which means "empty hand."
    This one was particularly irritating:
    Chinese warriors took "kara hand" into 17th-Century Okinawa where it developed into "Okinawa-te" (Okinawa hand)
    http://www.tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/KaratevsTKD.htm

    Fucking morons.
  2. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 12:00am

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    And then the Hwarang warriors developed medicine and gunpowder, thermonuclear weapons, and the ability to leap to the moon with their powerful legs.

    PL
  3. Kintama is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 12:16am


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    ...don't forget time-travel. They were the first to go back in time and re-write history. except they wrote it in a mish-mash of Chinese, Japanese and Hogen.

    can you imagine:
    1651: Chinese samurais from 'Kara Kingdom' in full battle dress and armorments board their junk ships and set sail to a tiny island they call "further East bumfuck"...their mission: to teach those peace-loving Okinawans how to fight bare-fisted....oh and how to make proper 'Ti' using a kettle and strainer.

    BWAAHaHaHA
  4. EternalRage is offline
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    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction.

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 12:34am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Bajillion Joo Jizzu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Obviously neither of you have ever had korean bbq + soju... i'm willing to believe anything they say after they top it with fresh kim chi
  5. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 9:04am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintama
    History re-written...again.
    "Originally, two Chinese characters were used to depict the martial art of "kara hand" or "the hand of the Kara Kingdom." The Japanese pronounced these two characters as "Karate" which means "empty hand.""
    I'm not sure what you find so wrong with this - the kanji originally used does refer to China (or sometimes more specifically, the Tang dynasty), and is still used in words referring to China, at least according to my kanji dictionary. An alternate reading for the same kanji, TO, is seen in the older name for the Okinawan art, Tode.

    The same kanji is used in multiple references on the history of karate. The use of the kanji meaning empty didn't appear until after the turn of the century, and wasn't popularized until the 20's and 30's.

    The only thing I'd question is if "hand of the Kara Kingdom" is a correct reading of the kanji - it seems a little simplistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintama
    This one was particularly irritating:
    "Chinese warriors took "kara hand" into 17th-Century Okinawa where it developed into "Okinawa-te" (Okinawa hand)"
    Again, I'm confused as to why you find this irritating. Pretty much every refernce I have on the history of karate agrees that there was a strong Chinese influence, though there is disagreement as to the date.


    What's your version of the history of karate?
  6. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 9:18am

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    There is was a chinese influence but Okinawa already had its indeginous MA. The way you hear pple make it sound is they got everything from China which isn't true.

    Japanese and Hohan terms are generally simplistic.
    ______
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  7. Kintama is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 10:53am


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    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    I'm not sure what you find so wrong with this - the kanji originally used does refer to China (or sometimes more specifically, the Tang dynasty), and is still used in words referring to China, at least according to my kanji dictionary. An alternate reading for the same kanji, TO, is seen in the older name for the Okinawan art, Tode.

    The same kanji is used in multiple references on the history of karate. The use of the kanji meaning empty didn't appear until after the turn of the century, and wasn't popularized until the 20's and 30's.

    The only thing I'd question is if "hand of the Kara Kingdom" is a correct reading of the kanji - it seems a little simplistic.


    Again, I'm confused as to why you find this irritating. Pretty much every refernce I have on the history of karate agrees that there was a strong Chinese influence, though there is disagreement as to the date.


    What's your version of the history of karate?
    You're shittin' me right?
    If the person (and you) knew what they/you were talking about, you wouldn't use the translation 'kara' to mean 'China', it's the same kanji but not the same meaning.
    Okinawans had an indigenous art...they called it "Te". They didn't need to qualify it with 'Okinawa-Te' because they were the only ones (per families, not commercial) practicing it.
    later, there was chinese influence added to make Tode/Touti/Toude however you want to translate it. The kanji used for 'Tou' (or 'To' with long 'o') means China.

    so when you say 'kara kingdom' it sounds rediculous...'empty kingdom'? lol
  8. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 1:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kintama
    If the person (and you) knew what they/you were talking about, you wouldn't use the translation 'kara' to mean 'China', it's the same kanji but not the same meaning.
    The same kanji that reads TO is also read as kara - as in Chinese style (karayoo). See http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/k/karayounoniwa.htm or http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/z...uyoutokyou.htm .

    That is not the kanji currently used for kara-te, but it is the one used historically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kintama
    Okinawans had an indigenous art...they called it "Te". They didn't need to qualify it with 'Okinawa-Te' because they were the only ones (per families, not commercial) practicing it.
    Most authors (at least, the ones that I've read), do use the term Okinawa te to distinquish from other usages of te. It is the term used in my version of Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan.

    Now, if your problem is that the authors get the timeline wrong, or over-emphasized the Chinese influence - well, that's not a recent re-write of history, the link you cite is mostly a rehash of Karate-do Kyohan. For example, p. 7:

    "In later times, after teaching of this method originally proposed by Daruma spread to many other places, it came to bear the name of it's origin and was called Shorin-ji Kempo. It was this method that eventually reached the Ryukyu Islands and developed into Okinawa-te, the forerunner of present-day karate."

    I won't defend Funakoshi's version of history, but I don't think it's fair to use the term "fucking morons", either, or to accuse the authors of that page of re-writing history.

    Even so, the time line given ('Kara' Kingdom -> Okinawa-te) may not be incorrect. For example, Bruce Haines in Karate's History and Traditions suggests that tode came about through Chinese influences during the Tang (perhaps Sui) dynasty; and the mix of tode and chuan fa in the 1600s led to te.

    later, there was chinese influence added to make Tode/Touti/Toude however you want to translate it. The kanji used for 'Tou' (or 'To' with long 'o') means China.
    The same kanji is also read as kara. As I understand it, the TO reading is more specific to the Tang dynasty, while kara is more precisely Chinese as an adjective.

    I was trying to follow your logic - you start out implying historical inaccuracies, but your specific examples seemed to be more grammatical errors. And if you are going to criticize histories, it's better to provide citations. (And now I'm burning my damned dinner; I shouldn't do this at home where I've got access to my library. I don't just post off the top of my head; probably would have ignored this if I'd been at work. But histories are fun).
  9. Ronin is offline

    Merry Christmas Bitch

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 1:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Canadian Shidokan

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    Hmmm,

    * looks at typical Okinawan Karate *

    I see...


    * looks at typical kung fu system *


    Ah...

    *looks at typical korean system *


    right....


    * concludes everything sucks ass compared to BJJ *

    BJJ wins again.
  10. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    7/22/2005 1:29pm

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    Clearly.
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