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  1. Meager is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 4:44pm


     Style: BJJ & MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fusenshi
    So basically, MMA training will train you in one and then the other, and it is up to you to put it together and make it your own when sparring?
    BJJ by itself isn't MMA.
  2. JMYoung is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 5:04pm


     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Meager
    BJJ by itself isn't MMA.
    I think he meant that MMA would teach him striking and grappling but he would have to put them together.

    It seems like you would learn how to defend against strikes while on the ground in an MMA class, since that's what you'd be dealing with in a competition. You could keep going with wrestling and try to put it all together yourself.
  3. access1denied is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 5:52pm


     Style: butt kickery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Jewish comment was really unnessecary.

    Also, MMA can't really be used in such a manner as individual arts, such as saying "I do kung fu," or what not. Mixed martial arts describes the realization that you can still have a specific style and preference to fighting, but in order to remain competitive, you must have knowledge of every single effective technique and style. Ideally, you would be able to attack and defend with all of these techniquies and styles, but knowing how to defend them is good enough, so that you can use your preferred element The basics are: be at least decent in free movement, the clinch, and on the ground. To cover free movement, you might take kyokushin and boxing. While Thai boxing is the most popular, you can just as easily learn to defend such things as the Muay Thai clinch, Thai roundkicks, and what not, but this would in it self take a certain measure of training in Thai boxing. At the same time, your free-movement "win" skills may be entirely based off of boxing. In the same spirit, you don't need to be a master of Brazilian Jujitsu to have a good ground game. You can be a submission wizard using combat Sambo and a bit of Greco-Roman, but you will still need to know Brazilian jujitsu to a certain extent so that you don't get swept, or caught in something that you don't know of.
    Last edited by access1denied; 7/20/2005 6:01pm at .
  4. alittlebird is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 5:58pm


     Style: Judo, a tiny bit of bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like most novices who start training position based grappling, you feel there are many holes in the game. Believe me, most Aikido and JJJ guys that come into a Judo or BJJ gym initially feel they could be nailing all these wrist locks and arm locks as well. Hell, when I first went to a BJJ class one of the first things the instructor coached me on when doing randori, was to forget certain submissions I was trying (ie the weird choke from guard Horn used to sub Chuck Lidell). I would get kind of pissed thinking "how does he know I'm not going to get this, I tapped someone with it once before" etc etc, but after I set my ego aside I realized that he was right, I was wasting energy on a submission that was frankly a low-percentage techinque from that position.

    The main difference with most BJJ or Judo, or wrestling style grappling is the focus on dominant position. At first this doesnt seem so important, a lock is a lock right, I can hit it when I'm mounted just as easily as when I have mount? But the fact is you will not hit it 95% of the time against a decent grappler when he has you mounted. The position before submission philosophy in these arts means that they focus on getting a dominant position first, then applying a submission only after you have ensured that you have proper leverage to finish it, and are immobilizing your opponent sufficiently that they will not easily escape once you've applied it.

    Same goes for striking. I had a friend once ask to try rolling around and doing some grappling (he did muay thai, very much a beginner as am I in judo). We rolled around for a while, I was in side mount , back mount, or full mount 90% of the time. I subbed him once or twice, but wasnt going nuts trying to strech him out or anything. Afterwards he said it was cool, and pretty frustrating for him, but that he saw so many chances to strike. So I said ok lets go again, body strikes only and if you want, palm strikes to the face. So we went with the body shots only, started rolling again. Same thing, I'm dominating position, but now hes throwing all these short elbows and punches to my legs/body, which although they hurt a bit, were only bad enough to be annoying. One time he gave me a pretty good charlie horse with his elbow, so I decided to start throwing shots myself. Now I've never trained in any striking byself, but guess who was hitting harder: him trying to strike upwards with his back flat on the ground, or me striking downward, turning at the waist, and getting my body behind the strikes? I knocked the wind out of him with the 3rd elbow I threw, because he was too busy trying to thow weak shots back up at me, to defend my much harder (due to position) shots.

    My advice: forget about thinking like "well I could do this, I ould do that, this wouldnt work on a skilled ninja, my teacher would reverse this easily with move x y or z" and start trying to learn something here. Don't just roll around with the guy to see how you and/or your systems 'match up', concentrate on improving your positioning and reversals on the ground and your sprawl and clinch on the feet. Muay Thai and wrestling (partiuclarly greco) both have great clinch games, and can really learn a lot from each other if egos don't get in the way.
  5. fusenshi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 10:16pm


     Style: Taijutsu/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DubhGhaill
    You will definitely learn to defend against locks and chokes with BJJ. Learning strikes and strike defences might vary from school to school, but I would expect most BJJ places to include them at intermediate/advanced level.
    "So basically, MMA training will train you in one and then the other, and it is up to you to put it together and make it your own when sparring?"
    No. Crosstraining gives you one and then the other (that's what you're doing now), MMA gives it to you all put together.

    Got you. I am new to this MMA thing, but I am seeing the value in it. I figure that what I know could take care of most threats I would encounter, but if I ever ran up on someone trained in the MMA style, then I might have some trouble on my hands. I figure martial arts are about staying on top of your game, and if the new dominant game in town is MMA, then you had better get your feet wet in it. Unfourtunately, I can't go to a school right now, so I am trying to make do with the resources I have at my disposal.
  6. fusenshi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 10:16pm


     Style: Taijutsu/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Meager
    BJJ by itself isn't MMA.

    I realize that. The topic jumped from BJJ to MMA.
  7. fusenshi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 10:25pm


     Style: Taijutsu/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alittlebird
    Like most novices who start training position based grappling, you feel there are many holes in the game. Believe me, most Aikido and JJJ guys that come into a Judo or BJJ gym initially feel they could be nailing all these wrist locks and arm locks as well. Hell, when I first went to a BJJ class one of the first things the instructor coached me on when doing randori, was to forget certain submissions I was trying (ie the weird choke from guard Horn used to sub Chuck Lidell). I would get kind of pissed thinking "how does he know I'm not going to get this, I tapped someone with it once before" etc etc, but after I set my ego aside I realized that he was right, I was wasting energy on a submission that was frankly a low-percentage techinque from that position.

    The main difference with most BJJ or Judo, or wrestling style grappling is the focus on dominant position. At first this doesnt seem so important, a lock is a lock right, I can hit it when I'm mounted just as easily as when I have mount? But the fact is you will not hit it 95% of the time against a decent grappler when he has you mounted. The position before submission philosophy in these arts means that they focus on getting a dominant position first, then applying a submission only after you have ensured that you have proper leverage to finish it, and are immobilizing your opponent sufficiently that they will not easily escape once you've applied it.

    Same goes for striking. I had a friend once ask to try rolling around and doing some grappling (he did muay thai, very much a beginner as am I in judo). We rolled around for a while, I was in side mount , back mount, or full mount 90% of the time. I subbed him once or twice, but wasnt going nuts trying to strech him out or anything. Afterwards he said it was cool, and pretty frustrating for him, but that he saw so many chances to strike. So I said ok lets go again, body strikes only and if you want, palm strikes to the face. So we went with the body shots only, started rolling again. Same thing, I'm dominating position, but now hes throwing all these short elbows and punches to my legs/body, which although they hurt a bit, were only bad enough to be annoying. One time he gave me a pretty good charlie horse with his elbow, so I decided to start throwing shots myself. Now I've never trained in any striking byself, but guess who was hitting harder: him trying to strike upwards with his back flat on the ground, or me striking downward, turning at the waist, and getting my body behind the strikes? I knocked the wind out of him with the 3rd elbow I threw, because he was too busy trying to thow weak shots back up at me, to defend my much harder (due to position) shots.

    My advice: forget about thinking like "well I could do this, I ould do that, this wouldnt work on a skilled ninja, my teacher would reverse this easily with move x y or z" and start trying to learn something here. Don't just roll around with the guy to see how you and/or your systems 'match up', concentrate on improving your positioning and reversals on the ground and your sprawl and clinch on the feet. Muay Thai and wrestling (partiuclarly greco) both have great clinch games, and can really learn a lot from each other if egos don't get in the way.
    Thanks for the well laid out response. What you said is what I am trying to do. I realized today that the positioning was the most important thing, and when we are doing wrestling, I shut up and listen. I was really trying to find out if their were other grappling systems that included striking and such, and I was trying to get at their differences from wrestling so that I can get a clear picture on the effectiveness of what I am doing. It was pretty obvious that one we got on the ground, he owned my ass, so their is no "My style is better than yours". We are trying to help each other fill the gaps in our game. I have decided that I am going to work really hard at learning how to do that.
  8. alittlebird is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 11:31pm


     Style: Judo, a tiny bit of bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah I just reread my post and it sounds a little presumptous, sorry about that, just that I've felt the ego welling up sometimes during friendly knowledge exchanges like that before. Aynhow there is not really many grappling systems/arts that really incorporate striking on the ground. There are a few that have it, but IMO unless they are actually sparring with strikes on the ground in regular classes, I don't count it as a 'standard' part of the art. A big part of this, IMO, is that the gear required to spar w/ striking SAFELY enough for the average joe, makes grappling difficult. The MMA style gloves are pretty restrictive already, and anything larger makes it really hard. Add in headgear etc and things start to get not only hard, but unrealistic IMHO.

    There are, however, many schools that do lots of sparring on the ground with strikes, just not in a 'judo', 'bjj' 'sambo', wrestling' or whatever class. Usually this is an 'mma' class or a class for fighters, sort of like in a Muay Thai gym once you tell them you want to get in the ring you start going to a 'fighter's' class. In my experience these classes are at a much higher skill and fitness level than normal 'recreational' type grappling classes. Finally there are a few academies that train with full vale tudo rules all the time - for example Chute Boxe in brazil say they go all out all the time with little protective gear. This seems pretty crazy, but those guys are pro fighters and do it for a living, so it sort of makes sense. On the other hand, there are also other great pro fight camps like MFS that do a lot of their training separately, they'll do their boxing, then later their BJJ, then later their MT, then later their greco, and leading up to the fight will start to do more and more 'mixed' training.

    You should see if your friend wants to try some subs first (after demoing them all for him and showing him how to tap!), this is probably one of the most easily transferrable things for him to learn from you (well, that or the flash bombs :new_uklia ). You'll probably catch him a lot at first, but wrestlers pick up subs VERY quickly so don't be surprised if he gets real good real fast :vv: Maybe eventually you can do strikes on the ground too. If you want to see any ideas for striking mixed in with grappling, watch some good mma fights - particularly these fighters - Vanderlai Silva (stomps and knees), Quinton Rampage Jackson (punching combos and bodywork), Fedor Emelianenko (power generation and bypassing guard) and Mauricio Shogun Rua (stomps, flying stomps etc).
  9. fusenshi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2005 11:46pm


     Style: Taijutsu/Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by alittlebird
    Yeah I just reread my post and it sounds a little presumptous, sorry about that, just that I've felt the ego welling up sometimes during friendly knowledge exchanges like that before. Aynhow there is not really many grappling systems/arts that really incorporate striking on the ground. There are a few that have it, but IMO unless they are actually sparring with strikes on the ground in regular classes, I don't count it as a 'standard' part of the art. A big part of this, IMO, is that the gear required to spar w/ striking SAFELY enough for the average joe, makes grappling difficult. The MMA style gloves are pretty restrictive already, and anything larger makes it really hard. Add in headgear etc and things start to get not only hard, but unrealistic IMHO.

    There are, however, many schools that do lots of sparring on the ground with strikes, just not in a 'judo', 'bjj' 'sambo', wrestling' or whatever class. Usually this is an 'mma' class or a class for fighters, sort of like in a Muay Thai gym once you tell them you want to get in the ring you start going to a 'fighter's' class. In my experience these classes are at a much higher skill and fitness level than normal 'recreational' type grappling classes. Finally there are a few academies that train with full vale tudo rules all the time - for example Chute Boxe in brazil say they go all out all the time with little protective gear. This seems pretty crazy, but those guys are pro fighters and do it for a living, so it sort of makes sense. On the other hand, there are also other great pro fight camps like MFS that do a lot of their training separately, they'll do their boxing, then later their BJJ, then later their MT, then later their greco, and leading up to the fight will start to do more and more 'mixed' training.

    You should see if your friend wants to try some subs first (after demoing them all for him and showing him how to tap!), this is probably one of the most easily transferrable things for him to learn from you (well, that or the flash bombs :new_uklia ). You'll probably catch him a lot at first, but wrestlers pick up subs VERY quickly so don't be surprised if he gets real good real fast :vv: Maybe eventually you can do strikes on the ground too. If you want to see any ideas for striking mixed in with grappling, watch some good mma fights - particularly these fighters - Vanderlai Silva (stomps and knees), Quinton Rampage Jackson (punching combos and bodywork), Fedor Emelianenko (power generation and bypassing guard) and Mauricio Shogun Rua (stomps, flying stomps etc).
    Thanks, that makes sense. I'll see what I can do with the subs tommorrow. Training has been really slow. I am having to go over the basics of a punch with him, and he is a slow learner with it. Then we switch, and he shows me some takedowns, and I end up being the slow learner. Then we roll so that I can work on the ground game.

    The only thing we have been able to really mix so far is I showed him how to work knees in a clinch. He was showing me how to get out of a clinch, and I had to show him to watch out for knees. He likes working from a clinch, and his eyes lit up when I showed him the knee options from there.

    I started studying the MMA matches. Thats really what got me into this transition into groundfighting. I just started to see the emphasis and effectiveness of groundfighting in MMA, so I figured I had better get with the program in case I ever run up on an MMA trained fighter.
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