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  1. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/06/2005 2:32am

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     Style: Tao Ga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't forget his four years of HS ROTC. . .
  2. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/07/2005 12:36am


     Style: TMA, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pathfromlogan, that's exactly my point. I will say this, Ed Parker was a theoretical genius, all physical ability aside. However, I've had my doubts about aspects of AKK's "history" since I first began hearing the stories. The link to Kajukenbo is indisputable. Going back before the days of James Mitose is my main goal. I think it's safe to say the Mitose was the first bullshido artist in America in the modern era.
  3. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2005 10:25am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushi_no_ki
    Pathfromlogan, that's exactly my point. I will say this, Ed Parker was a theoretical genius, all physical ability aside.
    I think his genius was mostly in self promotion. He was in the right place at the right time, and was influenced by the get-rich-Yankee-capitalism attitude prevalent amongst Mormons.
    Quote Originally Posted by bushi_no_ki
    Going back before the days of James Mitose is my main goal. I think it's safe to say the Mitose was the first bullshido artist in America in the modern era.
    You might be interested in Seinenka, in order to learn more about pre Mitose martial arts in Hawaii, http://seinenkai.com/ is a Hawaiian ma history site that is mostly concerned with Okinawan influences. They have links to Mitose of course, and avoid the controversies. They point out that the Okinawans (and everyone else for that matter) brought their martial arts with them when they immigrated. They are one of the few sources for accurate information on the history of ma in Hawaii.

    "Some of the many senior Karate instructors who have visited Hawaii over the years include Kentsu Yabu (1927), Choki Motobu (1932), Mizuho Mutsu and Kamesuke Higashionna (1933), Chojun Miyagi (1934),"
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  4. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2005 10:32am

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And I do take issue with anyone who would claim Mitose is Bullshido. That he is a very controversial figure is without doubt. His influence is enormous though, and you'd have to call people like Bruce Juchnik either liars or fools. I have only heard second hand reports on Juchnik's training from Mitose, but either he is in la la land and is completely lying about what he claims to have learned, or there is some degree of truth to Mitose's claims. And NO ONE says Juchnik is anything other than an excellent martial artists (though some say that he is a bit full of himself).


    Now we should go to the Vegas Gathering of Eagles, the big kenpo training/party. That would be the group to ask. Everyone was there in 1999, Adriano,Castro, Sijo Gascon, Tatum, Nick, over a thousand kenpoist. Motobu Sensei, Inaba Sensei, and Tanaka Sensei all showed up from Japan in 2001. Somehow they've left me off the list.

    Or we could go to Juchnik's gathering in Sacramento,where Kuoha and Thomas Young hang out. I understand the ones pissed about Tracy's comments about Mitose avoid Vegas and party with Bruce.
    Last edited by patfromlogan; 8/09/2005 11:17am at .
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  5. Meex is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2005 1:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah. . .internal politics!
    They should all show up and defend their rank.
    That would stop a lot of crap from showing up.

    `~/
  6. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2005 11:24pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK, I will comment further on the Mitose and Bullshido remark. I don't mean the art itself. Anyone who has trained with Choki Motobu has viable information. What I meant was that Mitose made alot of exaggerated claims and hyped up the history of his style solely for the purpose of selling it. I guess that qualifies more as mcdojo as opposed to bullshido, but that's my main point.

    As for Ed Parker, try finding an AKK instructor and having him teach you techniques such as Delayed Sword, Sword of Destruction, Cross of Destruction, Fallen Cross, Wings of Silk, and Sleeper. Parker designed all these techniques himself. That's what I mean by a technical/theoretical genius. I won't cast his sales/promotion skills aside either, even though in the long run they did a lot of harm.
  7. Shorinji Ki is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2005 4:40pm


     Style: Machimura SuiDi

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    Quote Originally Posted by pox
    Fair enough. It does beg the question - why does Mitose seem to feature prominently in kenpo histories?

    I don't understand it. Given that all the accounts I've read (sorry - don't have links at the moment) indicate that he was, at best, a medocre practitioner, and doesn't seem to have a kenpo background, why is he included in AK history?
    Like the Korean "karate" styles, your question gives you insight into what "American/Hawaiian" Kenpo truly is- an Okinawan karate inspired system of fighting, with some extra-superficial spice.

    I have some additional questions. What form of Chuan Fa did Prof. Chow espouse? Does he have official proof of his ranking in that system? How long was Choki Motobu on Hawaii? If it was only 2 weeks (most of it spent in quarantine) then what karate did all these so-called AKK pioneers learn? Was it Yabu Kentsu's Shorin Ryu (Kobayashi), who was never on the island for any significant amount of time or another Okinawan instructor who had a yudansha ranking in Okinawan (or even Japanese) karate?

    Could it be that the American Kenpo systems are a hodge-podge of beginner and intermediate Okinawan karate and chuan fa techs mixed with some JJJ, wrestling and street boxing?

    I have the utmost respect for Kajukenbo and Hawaiian Kempo, but have yet to be impressed by any of the other so-called AKK styles and their offshoots.

    How can you find the real deal history in a nest of omissions, fabrications and half-truths?

    Time reveals all things... :)
  8. patfromlogan is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2005 11:24pm

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shorinji Ki

    I have the utmost respect for Kajukenbo and Hawaiian Kempo, but have yet to be impressed by any of the other so-called AKK styles and their offshoots.
    Let me introduce you to Clyde... Also known as The Only One Still Standing at the Vegas throwdown.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  9. bushi_no_ki is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2005 11:58pm


     Style: TMA, MMA

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    Shorinji Ki, I can address one thing you said. I understand why you have very little respect for AKK. Ed Parker did alot of things in marketing his system in the sixties and seventies that were brilliant at the time, but unfortunately also opened the doors for bullshido and mcdojoism to take over. After his death, alot of the middle ranking (and some of the higher ranking) instructors split from the IKKA, rearranged a few things, changed a few of the techniques and forms, started calling it different names, and said it was as much "their" style as it was Parker's AKK. If you find one of the real AKK studios, and train in some of the techniques that have changed very little since Master Parker's death, with moderate contact, you will see that they do work. One of the reasons is that Parker insisted upon his students having "the full vocabulary of motion", and often wrote techniques that were similar, but different in key ways. The techniques as written are not exactly how you would do them in a SD situation, but teach you the concepts necessary.

    On that note, it is a sad state of affairs that the MA scene in America has been inundated with mcdojos and bullshido. AKK isn't the only art that has gone to **** in the last twenty years.
  10. Shorinji Ki is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2005 9:48pm


     Style: Machimura SuiDi

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    Quote Originally Posted by bushi_no_ki
    Shorinji Ki, I can address one thing you said. I understand why you have very little respect for AKK. Ed Parker did alot of things in marketing his system in the sixties and seventies that were brilliant at the time, but unfortunately also opened the doors for bullshido and mcdojoism to take over. After his death, alot of the middle ranking (and some of the higher ranking) instructors split from the IKKA, rearranged a few things, changed a few of the techniques and forms, started calling it different names, and said it was as much "their" style as it was Parker's AKK. If you find one of the real AKK studios, and train in some of the techniques that have changed very little since Master Parker's death, with moderate contact, you will see that they do work. One of the reasons is that Parker insisted upon his students having "the full vocabulary of motion", and often wrote techniques that were similar, but different in key ways. The techniques as written are not exactly how you would do them in a SD situation, but teach you the concepts necessary.

    On that note, it is a sad state of affairs that the MA scene in America has been inundated with mcdojos and bullshido. AKK isn't the only art that has gone to **** in the last twenty years.
    I don't necessarily respect styles as much as stylists, but some systems do get more props than others just based on an accurate lineage. I'm not saying that AKK doesn't profess a common American lineage. It's when you start speaking of things like Kosho Temple training (I always wondered if he meant "Kojo" as Kojo Kafu who studied under the reknowned c.1800's Fuzhou Chuan Fa master Ryu Ryu Ko), and the lack of historical accuracy and/or a corraborated lineage. I myself come from a karate ryuha that is replete with lineage questions and idiotic political infighting. I really empathize with the situation of ALL kenpo AND karate in general, especially stateside. About 90% of it is a hot, steaming mountain of crap.


    On that note I have met some awesome Kenpoists. I have seen at least one school locally that is very solid. What I do like about kenpo-ka is their open-mindedness. If they have questions they adapt and train to address the situation. There are some very well-rounded MAs systems out there, but most specialize and only lightly brush the surface of entropic physical encounters. I know sooo many karate-ka and other stylists (BJJ/GJJers included) who will swear that their base art has all the solutions. The only way that could be true of any MA is if the practitioner already has thumpin' experience under the belt, and that doesn't include things like full contact "kumite" where no face contact is allowed being a test of squab'ability.:)

    Ultimately it is the stylist versus the style, but a good style with a great stylist makes for some awesome ass-kickin' on a grand scale... Peace.
    Last edited by Shorinji Ki; 8/11/2005 9:51pm at .
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