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  1. FMA_Brian is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 7:48pm


     Style: Filipino Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Headbutting, Worth the risk?

    Here is a recent entry from Hock Hochheim's Blog http://www.hockscqc.com/blogs/07-05/index.htm

    "18 July, 2005: Brain Dead
    Just another passing note, brewed from my frustration. The innocent and ignorant proliferation of the head butt as a vital survival tool still amazes me. I am meeting this morning with a third neurologist (brain doctor) for one more, updated interview on the subject. (I am shooting parts of TM8 this Wednesday and this includes a section on the pro and cons of the head butt). I am looking for the very latest info before I step before the camera.

    My opinion is that you can make a fighting system built around a head butt. Well, it is not my opinion.....it is the opinion of BRAIN DOCTORS. Don't listen to me. Everyone pretending to be a modern fighter these days (and there are scores of these people) are throwing their head around as if it were a fist.

    The head butt is a weapon of the last resort, not a primary tool. It is too risky. The biggest proponents of head butts have knocked themselves out doing them for real.They cannot tell you this. The true stories of self stunning, self-induced, knock-outs are way too numerous to discount.

    I would replace "knee, elbows and head butts," with "Tricks, Knees, Forearms (longer, harder tool-elbows chip), and ANYTHING" other than a head butt- a hammer fist, or pulling his captured head into your shoulder, or...almost anything than risking stunning or knocking yourself out in the middle of a fight. Of course, it will hurt the bad guy, but it could hurt BOTH of you, not just your enemy.
    For your files...
    A neurologist is a medical doctor who has trained in the diagnosis and treatment of nervous system disorders, including diseases of the brain, spinal cord, nerves, and muscles. Neurologists perform neurological examinations of the nerves of the head and neck; muscle strength and movement; balance, ambulation, and reflexes; and sensation, memory, speech, language, and other cognitive abilities.

    Believe them? Or believe some lunkhead in a tank-top who didn't finish high school? Sadly, it is not just about your head, it is about the heads of all your students and your misguided mission to teach self defense and street survival."


    I personally am on the fence about this for two reasons 1) Con: it is the sole residence of 4 of my 5 senses. 2) Pro: I can't walk in a guard my whole life (please no "no-gaurd" is my gaurd B.S. you all know what I mean.) Therefore having the ability for a high-line impacting weapon/technique might be useful.

    I want to hear pro vs. con from everybody. BJJ guys who do you feel since headbutting is very useful in the guard and as a lever for techniques? Stand-up people what is your take? Have you used it? Did it knock you out? Was it effective?

    My first thread :toothy10:

    -Brian
  2. Camus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:37pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That article disgusts me

    Has nothing to do with his argument or 'thesis', but rather that he doesn't back up any of his 'facts'.

    The biggest proponents of head butts have knocked themselves out doing them for real.They cannot tell you this. The true stories of self stunning, self-induced, knock-outs are way too numerous to discount.
    Cool. So list even one verifiable instance. Clearly it shouldn't be hard if they're numerous.

    I am meeting this morning with a third neurologist (brain doctor) for one more, updated interview on the subject.
    Names of the doctors please, what exactly did they even say? My uncle is a neurologist, although I have not discussed headbutts with him before, perhaps I will (god this MA stuff can make a guy so low class), but not based on a poorly argued piece like this.

    If you could show me where he lists all his credible sources and instances, my opinion would quickly change on this matter, but I doubt that will happen.
  3. Fantasy Warrior is offline
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    Misguided style basher

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree with the article although I have never seen anyone KO themselves butting -maybe the locals are too well practiced at it? The key thing about headbutting is the surprise factor on the opponent, particularly if used pre-emptively by a shorter person (safer IMO, if you're taller it is harder to align your forehead with their nose). Throwing random headbutts is stupid of cause, but so is random most things..

    Next they'll be saying that punching someone is wrong as you might hurt your hand and thus woudn't be able to drive and maybe not work and your kids would starve, your wife would desert you and you couldn't wank after she did all because you punched someone.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM


    Aikidokkkkakkakakakaaaaa
    Best MA website ever!!!!!: http://www.dogjudo.co.uk/
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *paging Angry Spastic*

    I think the article is BS as well. I've head butted pple with no ill effect. But I got a good head on my shoulders.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  5. Jaguar Wong is offline
    Jaguar Wong's Avatar

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FMA_Brian
    I personally am on the fence about this for two reasons 1) Con: it is the sole residence of 4 of my 5 senses. 2) Pro: I can't walk in a guard my whole life (please no "no-gaurd" is my gaurd B.S. you all know what I mean.) Therefore having the ability for a high-line impacting weapon/technique might be useful.
    5 senses...you haven't reached the final level, huh? :confused3

    While I wouldn't throw headbutts as part of a combo (jab, cross headbutt!) I wouldn't discount their use in a life or death situation. Not necessarily last resort like the article above is saying, but if your other "weapons" are tied up and you've got an opening to end the fight or create an avenue of escape.

    Also, I would NEVER headbutt like an 80's pro wrestler or heavy metal head banger. I'll leave that style to the Junk Yard Dog or Skid Row fans. I would use more of a thrusting/ramming style, aiming the part you're hitting with and thrusting foreward instead of whipping your head downward and hoping that part connects before your nose does.

    I've caught slow/low impact thrusting headbutts to the cheekbones, jaw and temple (and the nose when it's my kids) and it's always felt like a giant rock giving me a love tap and stunning me. Any harder and it possibly could have cut me open, or floored me (opening me up for much worse...or an avenue of escape if I was an attacker).

    I'd use an elbow before I used a headbutt, though. Last resort for me would be biting or groin ripping/tearing and eye gouging (life or death). Because we all know those are GUARANTEED FIGHT ENDERS WITHOUT EVER TRAINING IN THEIR USE AGAINST A FULLY RESISTING OPPONENT IN A LIVE MANNER.

    The only whipping style headbutts I've been hit with are from when my kids throw a temper tantrum and whip their heads back when I'm trying to get them dressed and they don't want to comply. Let's just say it's taken a little while for me to learn to yeild with that, and even though it sounds very goofy, for the shortrange headbutts (no full wind up) I've learned to cushion the impact with my lips (puff up the cheeks, push the lips out, catch the headbutt and yeild...then endlessly tease and torment them while finishing up).
    Last edited by Jaguar Wong; 7/18/2005 8:58pm at .
    Jaguar's MMA record
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  6. Snapp is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:02pm


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have seen the head butt used and have used it effectivly myself on a couple of different situations.

    When I used the head butt the guy I was fighting had a hold of both my wrists trying to prevent me from punching him. So I pulled him towards me and nodded my head into his face. He dropped like a sack of hammers, I hopped into mount and was about to start in with some elbows when I was grabbed from behind and led away by a couple of friends.

    Without any prior martial arts experience, the head butt just came naturally and fit the situation. It worked out well, but with some of the experience I have now I would probably choose to do something different.

    Still... If I were to form an opinion on the head butt based on my experience, I would have to disagree with the article. While what the article says may be true, it certainly does not seem as serious or prevalent as it is made out to be.
  7. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:13pm


     Style: TKD; BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "groin ripping/tearing"
    It hurts to even think about that... jesus....

    I don't think a headbutt is that bad, the only problems you could have with it is if you did it wrong and rammed their forehead or something. However, again, it would be used after elbows and knees and stuff. It is also very useful in a grappling situation (I would imagine... I don't actually grapple much) to grind your head into their face to create openins or distract them. So I've heard, at least.
  8. baofuhaibo is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:43pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After extensive research, scientists associated with men's health declared that heading a soccar ball cannot cause brain damage of any type. It's your call whether headbutting is any harder.
  9. Camus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:48pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Source, dipshit?

    Not that I don't believe you

    Although scientists rarely make such absolute statements as 'heading a soccar ball cannot cause brain damage of any type'. There's always the possibility.
  10. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:50pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Article is seriously unconvincing to me. For one, the article characterizes all martial artists as idiots in tank tops that didn't finish high school... With biases and generalizations like that how can one take the information seriously?
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