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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 7:49pm

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "One would think that by training in "street" orientated martial arts, or combatives that emphasize the self defense aspects of martial arts, to the exclusion of what they deem to be "sports" training, that these types of individuals would gain more confidence, more peace, more happiness, and become more comfortable within them as their skills at 'self-defense' grew. Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the opposite seems to be true. Individuals that come to strictly "street" orientated martial arts, that were already prone to feelings of inadequacy, shame, physiological fear, and paranoia tend to have those qualities magnified by such training, rather then eased.

    I wouldn't ask anyone to take my word for it with that assessment. Instead I would suggest one visit the nearest "mercenary" convention, combatives or "street" martial arts forums, or speak with these individuals in person. This sadness, anger, and immense fear is palpable when you are forced to spend anytime around these types of individuals. Try reading the posts at the "street" forums. Many tend to read like angry notes from disgruntled 13-year-old boys. There is talk of "tearing out the mo-fo's eyes", biting, and various vicious things that can be done to the attackers. The posts speak to an intense anger and fear in the writers, and sadly, the Instructors of such curriculums cater to this need by exploiting their target audiences obvious weakness, and emotional frailty. – Matt Thornton (http://www.straightblastgym.com/problem.htm)


    And by Paul Sharp of Straight Blast Gym:

    Quote:
    You can observe the same thing in the so-called street fighting or reality based corner of the combat sport world. Scared people that translate themselves into lethal killing machines by toting around numerous knives, sticks and assorted weapons. The thing that makes these individuals really dangerous? They are still acting out of fear driven behavior. Without any knowledge of the moral and legal ramifications brought about by their actions. The truth is, they will never overcome their fear because they never confront it. Never testing their skills so as to give themselves a realistic view of their abilities. The fear compounds as they know they are untested which leads them to avoid the testing process for fear of losing and the cycle never ends.- Paul Sharp (http://www.straightblastgym.com/street01.htm)
    "

    From the Pax FAQ.
  2. Year Zero is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:47pm


     Style: Judo, Brazilian Jujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    RBSD guys are always talking about the need to defend from surprise attacks, but the likelyood of you remembering and pulling off a 12-step reaction is far less likely than just doing what you can with real, tested MA skills. What about the average bar figtht, where the attacker not only telegraphs his intentions to fight but often stands there for a few seconds totally open to attack?
  3. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 8:57pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

    Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. Jaguar Wong is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Shaolin Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EVIL ASIA
    I honestly can't see how the RBSD can poo poo MMA (or "sport" fighting in general) because.

    Pros greatly out weigh the cons. You learn to deal with violence and react under pressure. you learn to take a hit, usually several of them and respond. You learn how to actually apply techniques against soemone who is trying to do the same to you. You get in shape! The list goes on. But they fail to see this.
    THERE ARE NO RULES IN THE STREET!

    The MMA/sport training teaches one to react and use actual effective techniques (bread and butter 1-2 combo) when attacked, but most people (those that I've talked to that bash MMA) feel that it would be better to "react" with lethal or "more effective" fight ending techniques. Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure. You fight how you train, so if you're training to stand there while your partner fires of a pre-determined strike so you can react with a killing blow...well I just hope those RBSD types are attacked by egotistical Billy-Jack thugs (I'm going to take this foot, and ..... )

    Plus never training to fight beyond the 30 second mark (all fights end within seconds, not minutes) is doing wonders for their health, right? ;)
    Jaguar's MMA record
    pre Kung Fu and BJJ: 0-0-0
    post Kung Fu and BJJ: 0-0-0 (BOO YAA!!)

    We're number one! All others are number two or lower.
    - The Sphinx (Mystery Men)
  5. Kengou is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:16pm


     Style: TKD; BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Yet none of the practice to react with those techniques under pressure."
    Actually, I think the whole basis for RBSD is supposed to be this phrase, and they do focus on training under pressure. But, as has been pointed out, tying your arm behind your back and using stage blood and starting a fight undernieth a chair with a blindfold on and 3 guys attacking you, isn't really practical training. When are you ever going to get into that situation unless you live in prison or are in special forces or something?
  6. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar Wong
    Plus never training to fight beyond the 30 second mark (all fights end within seconds, not minutes) is doing wonders for their health, right? ;)
    Actually this varies. I have seen fights last as long at 5 minutes. There is no standard. Sport fighters want their fight to end quickly too but its alot harder to do with someone of with the same skill set and training.

    Actually, I think the whole basis for RBSD is supposed to be this phrase, and they do focus on training under pressure
    They SAY that but they don't do it. Under pressure for the RBSD guys is someone halfassing an attack then reacting to the techs the person throws at them. Under Pressure for the Sport fighter is dealing with a person who wants to put you down as much as you want to do the same to him.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. Camus is offline
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    Office Drone

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I always get a kick out of the lengths that they take some of the RBSD marketing lines to.

    "IT'S DARK. YOUR OPPONENT IS BIGGER, STRONGER AND FASTER THAN YOU. YOU HAVE A BROKEN FOOT. YOUR EYE IS BLEEDING PROFUSELY. THERE ARE ANAL BEADS INSERTED DEEP INTO YOUR COLON. BUT YOU HAVE JON JOHNSONS INCREDIBLE NO-NONSENSE STREET LETHAL KUNG-FU IN YOUR ARSENAL. YOUR OPPONENT DOESN'T STAND A CHANCE."

    They talk about how the only way to prepare for such an unlikely situation is to mimic that situation in practice. I'm not sure how necessary that is, going along with our whole 'it's unlikely to happen' argument.

    I played HS basketball and there were plenty of times that I had a rolled ankle or I had the flu or a pre-op hernia or something, but I didn't need to practice specifically for that. Several times guys would accidentally (or not so accidentally) eye gouge me in a jump-shot and knock out my contact lense. Did that make the free-throw impossible since I didn't practice with one contact in and one out? Hell no. Fucking ridiculous. It hindered my game a bit, but my overall level of skill didn't all of a sudden disappear.

    If you're a good fighter in an unfair situation, you're going to be better off than a worse fighter in a unfair situation. Practicing bizarre rape hostage and interrogation situations is way more suitable for kinky sex than self-defense training.
  8. Matt Bernius is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need to point out that all RBSD programs are not created equal. I realize I may sound like a Blauer shrill, but I have worked with one of his coaches in a regular class setting. I think many Bullshido folks would be surprised at how much that program resembled a MMA class. Time was spent on basic boxing and grappling skills, then various progressive resistance based drilling, and then into sparring and scenario drilling. Was some of the scenario drilling contribed? Yes. But was it effective? At least for me. And there was class time spent addressing things like "the force/response continumn" and other legal issues.

    As I've stated a few times, I've seen a few different Blauer coaches and students perform very well under pressure tested environments. And those folks were definitly NOT out of shape.

    Heck even Matt Thornton has been complimentary of Blauer's work. So again, not all RBSD programs are people "rolling around in fake blood."

    - Matt
    Last edited by Matt Bernius; 7/18/2005 10:01pm at .
    Student of Wan Yi Chuan Kung Fu,
    Kali, & what ever works
    Renaissance Martial Arts
    Rochester, NY
  9. 1bad65 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 9:59pm


     Style: boxing, gjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Camus has some good points as did Asia. I nearly got into a street fight with an asshole last Sat night. This was the closest I've came to one since I started training. Unlike the other times I was not shaking or breathing hard due to adrenaline. If the **** had hit the fan I planned on giving this guy what he asked for, an asskicking. He deserved one, he did not deserve to have his ears ripped off, or his eyes gauged out, or his knee blown up or whatever the RBSD nuts 'practice'. To me that is a big difference in MMA vs RSBD. MMA is to me the closest thing to a fight you can get. One thing alot of these RBSD 'teachers' often do not address is the legal ramifications if these techniques happen to work.
  10. Olorin is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 10:07pm

    supporting memberhall of fame
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FMA_Brian
    Just to play Devil's Advocate I wonder what the figures are on likelyhood of being a victim of violent crime. -Brian
    Good thread Utah. FMA Brian got me thinking; you could strengthen your arguments if you had included statistics of violent crime that does not rise to the lever of murder. It is much more likely that someone will try to start a fight with you than someone try to murder you.

    Lets take my little corner of the world…pop 39,065

    Crime statistics for 2002

    0 murders (0.0 per 100,000)
    24 rapes (60.7 per 100,000)
    7 robberies (17.7 per 100,000)
    66 assaults (166.9 per 100,000)
    262 burglaries (662.4 per 100,000)
    1,005 larceny counts (2541.0 per 100,000)
    68 auto thefts (171.9 per 100,000)
    City-data.com crime index = 227.5 (higher means more crime, US average = 330.6)

    And for 2001

    0 murders (0.0 per 100,000)
    11 rapes (28.1 per 100,000)
    13 robberies (33.2 per 100,000
    61 assaults (155.7 per 100,000)
    292 burglaries (745.4 per 100,000)
    931 laeceny counts (2376.7 per 100,000)
    61 auto thefts (155.7 per 100,000)
    City-data crime index = 212.6 (highter means more crime)

    So even if you include a wide variety of crime is very unlikely that anyone will try to hurt me. (and yes I do live in the fictional Mayberry)
    Last edited by Olorin; 7/18/2005 10:14pm at .
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