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  1. Freddy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2003 1:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kurds just now have to get rid of the Turks, Syrain, Iranian and any new Iraqi oppresors.

    "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  2. Freddy is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2003 1:41pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kurds now just have to get rid of the Turks, Syrians, Iranians and any new Iraqi oppresors.

    "Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  3. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2003 9:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not at all, Osiris. Not all Iraqi soldiers are Baathis, and I hope that those that aren't have the wherewithal and the opportunity to surrender before they are killed. The rest of them...praying for the well-being of enemy soldiers is praying for the defeat of your own, especially when one is an atheist. I care for their lives...but I'm not afraid to admit that I care more for our soldiers when it comes down to it.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  4. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    3/21/2003 9:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's only as long as they don't start getting all "My Lai" over there, then I have to flip sides.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  5. The Wastrel is offline
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    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2003 3:31am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "LOL"? **** man, this is why you piss me off sometimes. First of all, you don't know what it's like to actually have to wrestle with these problems personally in a real-life way. The implied sacrifice of moral sovereignty, the ethics of war...So it's easy for you to simplify it from where you are, no doubt. If I remember correctly, what I said was that you can't blame soldiers for the politics (simplified), I never said soldiers shouldn't die. I can't find the thread, so I can't answer with specifics, but you seem to be mixing up the individual with the aggregate again. When I'm lying in a hasty, it doesn't matter if the guy on the other side of the firefight is a good man or not, if he's "to blame" or not; all that matters is the color of his jersey. Combatants die, that's what happens. We don't HOPE that regular enemy soldiers die, we hope WE win, and lose as few as possible.
    And again...I said **** the Baathis, and I stand by it. They are Arab Nazis.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  6. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2003 10:26am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Osiris,
    I know you weren't a soldier, so I assume that you have never had to consider anything other than as an individual agent. If you don't understand the difference, then you don't understand the dilemma.
    As for, "Don't be in a hasty," are you saying that service in a national army is inherently wrong? I hope not.
    You are confusing the Baathi leadership with conscript soldiers. Baathi party leaders have the opportunity to form and direct national policy, and they have in fact ceased doing that in the interest of their citizens over themselves. A typical Iraqi soldier or conscript has nothing to do with his government.
    And I never said that the British imperialists did less harm or no harm. I wouldn't have minded at all if the British had lost their colonial wars in Africa. I certainly didn't say it was wrong to KILL a soldier. That's what war is. I said it wasn't appropriate for you to blame individual British soldiers and to take glee in their torture and murder.But now you want to call for sympathy for Iraqi soldiers? That's beginning to smell...racist?
    That's not an inclusive "we". And actually we do need to win. The long term outlook will not be better for an American defeat in Iraq. This isn't checkers? You're the one who looks at it like checkers. You pray for American defeat to advance your own political sentiments. That's a game. I have more than a dozen personal friends deployed with the 3rd infantry, as well as one ex-girlfriend (she's a super-hottie). In fact, news this morning suggests that an Arabic sigint person was killed. There's a very good chance that I trained with that person. Believe me, I don't think of this as a game of chess.
    You are confusing different ethical problems. Killing in war is not the same as killing in peace. Both sides employ armies who have consented to engaging a militarized opponent. It's not "wrong" for one to kill the other. It is "bad". It is "wrong" to torture enemy combatants, and it is "wrong" to take glee in the deaths of human beings.

    **The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. Vargas is offline
    Vargas's Avatar

    The Man with No Neck

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2003 4:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm, that sounds interesting. So, under what conditions would serving in a national army be okay with you, Os? Direct attack on U.S. territory? 'Clear and present danger'? Only with a declaration of war? I have some qualms about all these 'foreign entanglements' that George W. (Washington, not Bush) warned us about. But then you have to ask, who decides the criteria? The president, congress, national referendum? Some people are suggesting that Bush may blow off the War Powers Act like every other President since Nixon. What then? The decision to use force is a tricky one.

    As far as the decision to fight or not, I certainly wouldn't leave it up to the rank-and-file members of the military to decide which wars we should or shouldn't fight. I have about 3 to 4 million dollars worth of training courtesy of the Air Force. If I thought doing an air campaign over Serbia was bullshit, should I be allowed to just sit that one out? What if I thought the target I was given by my mission commander was incorrect? Should I insist on one that fits more with my personal feelings? One of the hardest things about being in the military is being ordered to do something you don't agree with but doing it anyway. I'm not talking about illegal orders (ie shooting civilians, bombing churches, etc. . .), I'm talking about things that exist in that grey area of opinion. The war in Iraq probably seems that way to lots of people. It isn't 100% right or wrong, but kind of in-between. As a member of the military, you don't get the luxury of deciding which wars are right or wrong, and rightfully so. Civilians control the military. If anyone has a problem with what the military is doing, call your congressman or the Prez. Better yet, only vote for people who seem competent in the national security arena.

    "Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"
  8. Shura is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2003 4:38pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    don't forget this is a prayer for the survival of our troops and loved ones that are in danger. I'm sure we all want that and we dont need to mess up this prayer with arguments.

    There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming...
  9. Vargas is offline
    Vargas's Avatar

    The Man with No Neck

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2003 6:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, I'll take any prayers I can get. Hopefully, my buddies in theater will get most of the good ones. I'm just a spectator right now, like everyone else, so I don't need the really high-powered prayers quite yet.

    "Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"
    "I had once talked to Billy Conn, the boxer, about professionals versus amateurs - specifically street fighters. One had always heard rumors of champions being taken out by back-alley fighters. Conn was scornful. "Aw, it's like hitting a girl," he said. "They're nothing."


    - George Plimpton
    "Shadow Box"
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