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  1. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2005 11:37pm

    supporting member
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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, yes, you could stomp on the guy's face as you armbar...but if you're just an vagina who quotes Rickson's 400-0 fairytale all the time and never actually rolls or competes, then it's a moot point, because the only thing you'll ever be hyperextending is your own penis.
    Similiarly, if you establish a good neck clinch and shake a shorty around/do a flying neck crank/crossface until his face is 90 degrees vertical from his body then outside trip, there's a good chance you could cause some bad neck damage...but since you do your brand of silat, where you don't actually grapple until you've demonstrated that you can snap a wet sarong with good form, or whatever technique it is that you DON'T SPAR WITH, then you have no actual chance of pulling this off on anyone who isn't the above mentioned vagina.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  2. Wali is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 5:47pm


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehogey
    Who?


    There is no indication on the web that he ever studied BJJ.
    We have people from all over the UK come and train with us. Being from the UK you probably won't know them, but many of them are professionals from the London Shootfighters camp. I never said we take on the like of Randy Couture, etc...

    He hasn't studies BJJ. I was referring to the silat being on par with the BJJ. The silat we do isn't your averague U.S school silat, and I can understand your attitude, but also be open to the fact that what you have seen of silat and exposed to, may only be a very small percentage, and a bad percentage at that... If your ever in the UK, feel free to drop into our acedemy and check us out. We're friendly people and you'd get a warm welcome.
  3. antman is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2005 6:25pm


     Style: Silat, New to Hsing- Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To chime in shortly:

    Hard sparring in Silat I have observed is usally done only by advanced practicioners.

    Form and timing are done through play and pentjat.

    Resistant drills do occur after learning basic applications

    There are judo/aikido style throws.

    Some takedowns that are injurious due to stepping on feet.

    For contact I sparred MT for a short time until I injured my hip/thigh.

    Groundfighting is not like grappling BJJ/JUDO/SOMBO, and is more dependant on being mobile and attacking.

    I don't consider myself a master, teacher, good student, or good practitioner but I have studied off and on for 5yrs, and am nowhere where I should be.
    Last edited by antman; 7/30/2005 3:30am at .
    "Its not important to be strong, its just important not to be weak."
  4. KM1979 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2005 9:14am


     Style: Krav Maga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Of Chaos
    Happy to answer your questions sir.

    1. OK- Sparring. The empty hand sparring with two full time members of our school would often look pretty much like your standard MMA fighting, with the takedowns and sweeps being executed a bit differently than average bjj/ wrestling clinch work (although you'd see a lot of 'orthodox' moves too). I'm an older dude (32) but we had a few younger guys in their 20's who really follwed local MMA events like NAGA and Mass Destruction. They were always trying to give our Silat stuff the true litmus test to see if it'd work in the ring, which my teacher and I always encouraged. We obviously had to go easy on the headbutts, eye damage, and elbows, since all we'd wear is gloves, a mouthguard and a cup, although those would rarely ever be used anyway. When sparring with practitioners of other arts or noobs however, would have you seeing a lot more of the actual Silat techniques being executed because these fighters were unfamiliar with the moves we were doing. That was the proof (to me anyway) that many of our techniques were pretty sound.

    The knife sparring got REALLY out of control a few times. Not that anyone got seriously injured beyond bumps and bruises, but it just got really intense and violent. Towards the end of our training we had a kid who had done DB/ Kali for many years, and he would totally tweak out on us (although empty handed he was fuckin awful- it was really weird). We eventually concluded that most knife disarms sucked, and the few good ones that we'd learned from the Sayoc system would only work about 20% of the time. Against the Kali kid they NEVER worked at all! Anyway, that's getting off the subject a bit, since I was only taught offensive knife techniques in Silat, and the knife defenses that we worked on from other arts like Pekiti Tersia all pretty much sucked. Chris Sayoc's were the only ones that would work, and even those were far from fool proof.

    2. The only 'other' Silat fighters I've trained with outside of my immediate school (we were the only one in the area as far as I know) were Tristan Sutrisno from PA and some people in Holland involved in Suti Hati and Serak. These gentlemen were all older and of Indonesian extraction (Tristan is 100% Indonesian) and the others (Jim Ingram and others I met in Holland) were of mixed Dutch/ Indo descent. None of them claimed "too deadly" in fact many claimed they'd had their asses beaten numerous times in their youth for being too cocky about their fighting skills. A couple of the Holland guys boxed too, and spoke of boxing like it was a really essential part of their fighting training.

    3. The Silat I trained in (Amerindo Self Defense) is a blend of Mustika Kweetang and Tjimande (tradtional Silat styles that look a bit Chinese influenced) and Pukulan. The word "Pukulan" gets thrown around a lot in the US, and seems to mean a bunch of different things. Basically, how Pukulan was explained to me is it is the Dutch/ Indonesian mixed bloods' (aka "Indos") version of Silat. It is definitely more western looking and feeling than some of the traditional Silat styles (like Harimau- or "Tiger Style") and incorporates a lot of boxing and fencing movements. I liked the Pukulan techniques the best. We actually DID have a lot of ground techniques. My instructor had trained a bit in BJJ so he worked a few of their techniques into our groundfighting. The guru of our art though (Jim Ingram) actually started training in Gulat (traditional Indian wrestling) before he learned Silat, so in addition to tchniques taken from the previously listed styles, we also had a lot of Gulat in our style as well. I'm not sure how Gulat differs from any other wrestling, as I've never trained in any, but I'd venture to guess it's pretty similar to regular submission grappling.

    4. We never entered tournaments or did demos. My teacher was really weird and secretive about Silat. However, I was never discouraged from competing. Since we only trained 1-2 times a week, if I were to compete I definitely would have had to train more to get into better shape, and fight a LOT more. No one ever said I wasn't allowed to do that, and we actually had an MT guy and an amateur boxer training with us for awhile. Those guys were great.

    5. I kind of answered this question a bit in #4, but no, I do not currently cross train, though I am def. planning on it. Actually as of last week my Silat teacher informed me that he's taking the summer off from teaching, and may actually move away. If he does, I've been encouraged to take over the classes if I so desire, although I feel really weird about that since I'm only 3 years into Silat, as opposed to his 9. He also trained in some Kali, a fair amount of BJJ, some Bando and a lot of MT. The man is truly gifted, and he def. showed us a LOT of material, not just Silat. I def. plan to continue training in MA, and might see about trying to get a space to do Silat at a new MMA gym that opened up in S. RI. If I do that, I'll be able to cross train in boxing an sub wrestling, which I would be stoked on if the guys there are legit. I'm going to check them out next week.


    Soooo to sum this all up, the majority of my Silat experience comes from a suburban American dude who's been fanatical about learning anything and everything that he deemed effective in MA for the past 17 years, with the majority of his concentration being on SE Asian arts. He's one of those guys who sees a technique done once and can totally do it. Truly gifted. The other people I've trained with in Silat were mostly Indos, and their take on Silat was to demystify it and make it more of a practical fighting art than a cultural/ mystical experience. If you know anything about the Indos, they were persecuted by the Japanese and then later by the newly formed Muslim fundamentalist state in Indonesia. Many were killed or expatriated to Holland, so they are pretty hardcore and down to earth guys. I feel lucky to have trained with some of them- esp. Jim Ingram.


    I just wrote a friggin book! Anyway, I hope that this proves that not all Pentjakkers (or "Silatistas" as you guys called them) are snobby, know it all Walter Mitty types. Or worse- RBSD types who don't actually fight.
    Lord of Chaos,

    I think you don't have your facts right.

    I will introduce myself first, my name is Ludwig and i'm from Holland.

    I was a student from oom Jim for about 5 years and i'm an 1st level instructor. I was training with the son of oom Jim, he lives here in Holland. Can i ask you who your teacher is?

    The first fact what you've got wrong is that you think that your fellowstudents are sparring but there not, in other words, there is no sparring in the Amerindoprogram.

    Second fact: the Amerindo is derived from a Pukulan"style". So Pukulan is not only the word for boxing or punching but you've got real complete styles of Pukulan. The Amerindo is derived from Pukulan Japara, this is the first 20 applications you get in the official program, then you switch over to the Mustika Kwitang (as its spelled correctly) and there you get 11 applications. When you have these then you are going to combine them and you will receive a little bit Tjikalong.
    There is no Harimau in the Amerindo system only Gulat. They say that there is also Serak in the system but the older players here in Holland don't confirm that because oom Jim didn't train long enough in Serak. Ohw and there is no fencing in Pukulan........

    If you want to cntact me further you can email me at lvd1979@hotmail.com. Can you let me know who your instructor is.

    Ohw, i'm no longer teaching in groups here in Holland but only in private, because i have met other "players" and they said to me that real good Pukulan isn't thought in groups but 1 on 1. I'm also no longer a student of Jim Ingram and his son but i'm taking now Krav Maga witch is more realistic than Amerindo.

    I also want to say something about the Silat in the USA, it's in the eyes of the older practitioners here in Holland al crap, bacause they ask too much money, the teachers only learn half of the system.........

    What are you paying your teacher for a lesson???
    Last edited by KM1979; 7/29/2005 9:19am at .
  5. Hedgehogey is offline
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    Tsun-Derrorist

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2005 1:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: ^_^

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The hallmark of bullshido is when someone attempts to test their style in a realistic manner, their peers and/or instructors will ACTIVELY TRY TO STOP THEM.

    Which is starting to happen here.


    "The only important elements in any society
    are the artistic and the criminal,
    because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
    can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

    RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

    THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

    It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
  6. Steve357 is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/29/2005 11:35pm


     Style: Bukti Negara Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes silat players spar. That's why they are called silat players. Good players have excellent games. Serak/Bukti players close the distance very very quickly like a shooter. Good luck boxing a guy who is chest to chest with you. Now, guys, please read on with an open mind, or don't read on at all.

    I have recently joined a well known but private group of excellent players. I have 15 years of sparring experience, and I have trained in multiple styles....with many great instructors. My humble resume includes the best of the jkd community schools Inosanto Academy as well as the Magda Institute. I've trained at the Reseda Machado BJJ school many years ago just after UFC 4. I trained there with Jean Jaques and Renato for over a year. I loved it. Try sparring with Jean Jaques....it is awesome. I really really loved Jun Fan JKD. Most of the great instructors Inosanto, Nakamura, Magda, Kent, Tackett are AMAZING at it. I just missed an opportunity to train with Ted Wong. I hear his speed at 65 years old is frightening. That is awesome. Keep training hard and you wont lose it.

    Ok, I've done a year of Aikido with Larry Reynosa (Segal's senior student) which was interesting stuff, they SPAR HARD guys. But you know, their entries are simply not fast enough to deal with boxing. It's really efficient for a long stick or sword. The footwork is also big and slow. Excellent against a bat. Too slow for the jab. I might mention that it is actually quite effective against the shoot. We got to really try it out guys....hardcore and everything. YES....Aikido.

    That's me, I'm into sparring. I didn't like Wing Chun much cause my teacher....Joe Sayah (under William Cheung) was an arrogant ass and I tried sparring by his rules....(wing chun only) and I was getting smoked by the newbies. Nothing like a new style's cage to keep you handicapped. So Sifu Joe says..."what happened man..? Thought you were a good fighter with all this experience?!?!" Ok MMA guys, this is where you get to laugh. We were sparring with NO GLOVES and "what happened?" Come on. I said, well, let me spar my way. He put me up against one of his vaunted brown sashes. JKD lead hand jab to nose instantly from long range. The guy flew back and grabbed his face. I think his nose was broken and I really felt bad. Anyways...I love to fight, spar, test my skills, etc.

    I did a year and a half of Muay Thai with Magda Institute as well. Their kickboxing curriculum is second to none as far as I'm concerned and I've had some amazing kickboxing schools to choose from - I live in the LA area. My friend has done 12 years of competitive Muay Thai and I recently got a chance to spar with him. I thought I wouldn't do so well, but you know what...I did rather well and afterward we trained thai kicks on thai pads and I got a couple of compliments. Thank you Sifu Cass.

    I've done Kali with Magda and Inosanto. Magda's program is amazing. The Dog Brothers just made one of my senior Magda brothers a dog brother. They are all awesome there at Magda phase 3.

    I also did Okinawan Shorin Ryu with a guy who claimed to know all the grappling and pressure point stuff. I liked this guy, but he just didn't know how to teach or progress someone in that art. It was just "block, punch" stuff, but a good art to teach me what I didn't want. Five years of that let me know that what I wanted was something that I could really count on and use on trash talkers when they stepped up. It had to be something I could prove and really apply on an intelligent, skilled and resisting opponent. I didn't want a "silver platter martial art" where in three easy lessons, the deadly techniques you learn will render any opponent useless.

    I'm right with all of you MMA guys. Marketing in martial arts has been taken to a high science, higher than the arts themselves in many many cases. So on to my point.

    I love to polish my skills, spar, drill, test my new skills, repeat. I have many little games that I'm now comfortable with and I can flow pretty well against someone who is resisting.

    The thing is, kickboxing you can learn fast, same with grappling. You don't need a large foundation to get it going. After awhile, with kickboxing at least, your ability peaks and you need really really qualified people to progress you after that. Or just get stronger and faster. Grappling is cool too, and you learn it fast, but you know it has it's weaknesses. Any grappler knows that in a real situation, two things are in the back of his mind. I know, I've been there. 1. If I tackle this guy or we go down together, I hope this guy doesn't land on me, and I hope I don't hit the cement hard. and 2. What if I get hit hard or knocked out on the way in. Be honest guys. Grappling is cool and awesome but there are even two more issues: 3. What if we're on the ground and his friends come around the corner....Everyone's playin soccer! 4. What if the guy has a knife. These are the tip of the iceberg in the grappling arguements. I've been there...on both sides of that arguement. And....as you guys all know, you CANNOT win an arguement.

    After a recent fight with three guys my size in the middle of the street, I realized that kickboxing was not the answer. Neither was grappling - there was no mat. There were three guys circling me. Jesus guys, I felt damn helpless. As I slammed one in the face with the jab, he went flying back out of reach of a follow up anything, and I got grabbed. Now I'm GRAPPLING 3 guys. Enough said. I am no slouch at kickboxing or grappling. My game fell apart. Hahaha, hard lesson learned. After 15 years of sparring, hard training, etc. I'm still left with questions.

    At Magda Institute I was introduced to Silat. It works. It is a game with grappling, close range precision hitting, trapping, all of it. It is awesome, but slow to learn. You can't spar right away because the tools are different and take a while. I watched the phase 3 guys spar though. You guys have never seen anything like it, the videos on the web are other silat styles, and are not strong looking, I can tell. Serak and Bukti Negara teach you to go straight in. Safety in the eye of the storm. This takes years to perfect, and yes things can and do go wrong. You slowly build a game of your own. I would compare it to Muay thai, simplified wing chun, and Machado JJ all standing up. You learn to move in off the first contact and monitor the whole body. Right away the opponents body should be off-balanced and you move right through them. Yes, it works, no hocus pocus. I've tried fighting back, they just change it. The falls hurt even on mats. They use the whole body as a handle, and you're always off balance, if you try to back up, they direct you where to go and you have no choice, you're falling down the whole time. I'm constantly bruised. Their elbows are almost always at extreme close range and are used with the other hand to crush the head and anything else like a coconut. Hits are impressively fast. I am not just blowing bullshit, it is very impressive to feel. From the first beat, you feel totally ackward and falling down. Then as you get pulled totally off-balance, you're getting hit everywhere. Then the throw happens, many times head first into the ground. You're even getting hit on the way down...It is scary. Note, I've felt amazing kickboxers, grapplers...aikidoists, etc. This is all new to me, and they are able to flow, and spar. Sparing is like a battleship without cannons. Just grappling is used, and sometimes the hits are simulated (meaning they tap you which still leaves bruises) It is all quite automatic and they have a BJJ-like flow. Until you feel it, it's so hard to discribe. Their simplified hand system for defense of striking I thought would never work on boxing. So far, I have not been able to hit them ONCE. I asked my Guro all the hard questions....what about a shooter? What about the jab with fast entry/exit? What about the JKD straight blast? What about Thai kicks low. He offerend for me to "go ahead, do whatevery you want." Tried them all, They were all easily countered and I ended up bouncing on my ass with multiple hits stoping with insane control on my throat, head, arms, chest, back of the neck, etc. This was all done at real-time sparring speed. The teacher invited me to attack any way I wanted at full speed. The whole class watched as I was disassembled at full speed. Guys, don't knock it till you try it. And....yeah, if I find some good silat on the net, I'll point it out, but as far as I hear, there is almost NO good Silat in this country.

    No it's not perfect. Yes you can still get hit. No it isn't RBSD. Yes, the whole game works on the ground (all of it). Here is a link to Guro Dan Inosanto's impressions on THIS particular silat (I'm not talking about all Silat, just Bukti Negara/Serak). http://www.martialhub.com/articles/serak.htm

    From what I hear about Serak, there are imposters everywhere. Everyone claims it becasue it is nasty and it works. The Lineage holder and highest skilled player is Pendekar Paul De Thouars. Apparently, his brothers' styles aren't even close. Every JKD guy I've ever talked with including really crazy MMA fighters who know, have said that Pendekar is amazing.

    Other notable syles (with credibility) are Mande Muda, Harimau, and Cimande. Each has a specialty and players fight each other competitively. They even have dances with their moves which they do before they fight to see who wants to "come and play". If someone is not that good by their dance, you might be willing to go show him what's up....but he is probably sandbaggin. The skilled players are extremely good at deception and setting traps.

    I still miss hitting my thai pads....and all that, but now I'm into this and I need no one to verify this and tell me it works or doesn't. I have the experience to know. I can simply tell all of you with complete confidence that I wish I started when I was 15 in Bukti Negara and just skipped a lot of other stuff.
    Last edited by Steve357; 8/01/2005 10:28pm at . Reason: type O
  7. Steve357 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2006 3:38am


     Style: Bukti Negara Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by poidog
    If I may be so bold, I'd like to take a shot at answering these questions.

    1) The only time I saw silat sparred was when a guy from the local mande muda silat group came to a saturday stickfight put on by your friendly local clan of Full Contact Hawaii fighters. I fought him double stick, he fought some other group members single stick and took part in the knife sparring. Rules were basic/standard Dogbrother style rules: No intentionally crippling shots (i.e. unprotected back of head, spearing throat with thrust, etc) and remain friends at the end of the day. I was not particularly impressed. He was owned in his first single stick fight, owned on the ground during his second single stick fight, the double stick (me) went to the ground, and he was thoroughly killed in his knife sparring. When he and I went to the ground, he did make impressive use of his feet and almost secured an armbar (and pinched at my nutsack, the fucker). Now keep in mind, I suck at an almost godlike level on the ground, and back then I was even worse. Only the fact that I outweighed him by a good 40 pounds and could bull him around kept me from instant submission. When he fought our resident BJJ practitioner, he was less than effective, BJJ negated any ground tactics he tried to use.

    2) Yes, same guy. His claim was that the knife work in silat was so deadly that even with the aluminum training blades we were using he could really **** us up. What we did was call him on it, and he failed...thoroughly. He was killed even against our most junior fighters, repeatedly.

    3) What I saw did not resemble any wrestling I've ever seen. However, I might add that against someone not comfortable nor familiar with the ground, it is effective. I was hard pressed to avoid being submitted repeatedly while we were rolling. Wait, he had 3 single stick fights and he did destroy his opponent in one fight. It must be noted however, he was fighting our weakest fighter who only had 3 or 4 fights up until that point under his belt. The fight was decided by an armbar, and the defeated sucked worse on the ground than I do/did (that fighter subsequently stopped fighting with us). So again, effective against someone with no/little ground knowledge.

    4) I'm pretty sure they (his school) did not. I might add that after the day he came and fought with us, he never fought with us again.

    5) No, he didn't. Well, he cross-trained in other silat styles, but nothing outside of silat.

    Now, I would be doing a great disservice to silatista's everywhere if I did not add that even most of the guys at his school thought he was a loud mouthed twat. He had a big mouth, and could not back his **** talking.

    Mentioning the deadly silat throws; in training, they seem tremendously effective. And they are dangerous to the knees and ankles in the same way a heel hook, taken too far too fast, can be dangerous to the knee/ankles. No more, no less. But, I should mention that after many fights with Dogzilla, he has repeatedly complained of his inability to make the throws work in real time/real contact stickfighting. He briefly studied at the silat school where twat-boy studied (in the interest of making his own decisions regarding any art) and has since abandoned his studies there in favor of studying with two of the local (Hawaii) MMA gyms.

    As with anything I post, just my two cents.
    I understand the frustration of the mma community with traditional martial arts. Almost all the time you guys have really good points. I have always been a feel it and see it to believe it martial artist. Tiger style? Do it on my muay thai.....lets see. I trained at the inosanto academy with Yori Nakamura....he brought Shooto to the US and is one of Rickson Gracie's close friends and training partners. I have rarely had harder training sessions than with him or at the Machado BJJ school in Reseda. What I have experienced in Bukti Negara under the instruction of Guro Danny Huybrechts and Pendekar Paul De Thouars defies explaination for me.

    I was searching for a more aggressive method like wing chun meets judo. In all of my training, JKD and Shooto with Yori Nakamura, BJJ with Jean Jacques Machado, etc etc, I had not felt confident at very close range and I wanted something for that range. Even Muay Thai seems to struggle until it gets into the Plum because there is no control on the opponent. You leave them strong when you throw elbows or knees, so they can fight back. The plum is difficult to get and if you are good at it, difficult to get out of. Still I wanted to be able to control my opponents more like BJJ does but standing up and still striking with muay thai power. I didn't think this existed.

    We all know anyone can and will get hit in a fight. This is real life. I've had my ass kicked many times and am humbled by the amount of damage a untrained fighter can deliver when they're really trying to get you. Broken rythm is a MF.

    I found out about Pendekar Paul De Thouars. He is probably the only real old school Silat player left in the US. He is the only lineage holder of Serak, which is his family's heirloom, so he does not teach it. Everyone who has learned Serak or throws around the name Serak has in one way or another, learned it from Pendekar Paul. Usually they have very little training and they leave, but claim 10 or more years of training. Pendekar's credibility is untarnished and he is the real deal. His brothers have tried to cash in on the family name, even though they have less than yellowbelt knowledge and experience with the system. Pendekar is helpless to watch as his family rapes and exploits the art he considers sacred.

    When I found about about these guys, some really unbelieveable claims were made by a former student. I did not believe any of them and had to see what BS they were slinging. I went down. What followed was a completely mind blowing experience.

    They are good.

    They spar right away.

    The body angles they use to control are aikido-like but at much closer distance.

    They strike much harder than a muay thai fighter can, at chest to chest range.

    They hit to move you into a different position on top of using weak angles.

    All these skillsets are drilled using very unique isolation drills and very carefull teaching.

    At first there is no resistance so you can learn the proper angles. This takes some time.

    Later resistance is moderated up and down in each drill, making sure that throws and positioning are not MUSCLED....and that the principles are being used.

    Sparring is achieved. It is awesome. It looks like Wing Chun, Muay Thai, and BJJ all done standing up, semi crouching, and on the ground at very close ranges.

    I've been hit hard in the face, neck, throat, ribs, back of the head, ear, shoulder, etc. In almost every class for the last year and a half. The training is by far.....by far. The hardest and most severe I have ever encountered. JKD schools seem like ballet schools in comparison. Muay Thai, although the conditioning is superior, is not nearly as destructive. The grappling they do, will work without strikes. Their footwork is ridiculous....very useable in a fight. When I try to shoot, or kickbox, which is openly encouraged, I am easily crashed into, hit, repositioned, hit again, and then slammed hard. More often than not, when thrown my arm (or arms) are held onto to break as I fall away from them.

    I have tried to grapple them. They hit extremely hard in class. I can't pull it off, there is too much damage happening. This is true Poekulan <to hit>.

    No mystism here. It works, they train hard. I have hit them hard myself, but if you don't knock them out in the first shot, they will be too close to hit after your first attack and at that point your hands are covered and your base too weak to do any purposeful striking.

    You know the pressure you've all felt when someone does a knee ride or is mounted, or even side control? This art teaches you to have that standing up. Constant forward pressure. The art works best under stressed situations when things fall apart. Just having extremely close range powerful striking allows you to crash past most boxing and kicking. Then most people try to grab or tackle. This is Bukti Negara's game. Every possible offensive tool is used, forearms, palms, fists, headbutts, especially elbows and not just for hitting, shoulders, knees, etc.

    To be thrown by a good (not that bullshit you see on internet videos....it's all crap) silat player, is frightening. I am not saying you can't stop them, or that they can't be hurt. I've hit them, tackeled them, etc. They keep going and are very very tough. They are always hitting with really powerful stuff. Their strikes are completely unique and I personally guarantee that not one of you would like to get hit by them even lightly. They are almost always aimed at weak areas, ie. elbow or forearm to neck, stuff like that.

    The leverage system is simple, effective and beautiful to watch applied on someone resisting. It works. I have seen multiple traditional systems fail the sparring or resistance test. Usually just a good kickboxer or shooter will take someone right off of their feet.

    Any of you are welcome to come and see for yourself. It is located in southern california, monrovia. Actually, come and feel it. They wont teil you not to do your thing, they'll encourage it.

    At my level there now, I don't think I could stop a good shooter without powerful elbows to weak areas. That's not fair for the shooter because many of those attacks are easy and therefore banned in Pride and UFC. The back of the head is extremely vulnerable as is the back of the neck. So I've learned the hard way. Kickboxing, even on someone skilled, isn't that hard to stop. I come from a "show me" mentality, and I was very impressed with how they crashed like a shooter in close, applied pressure and hits, then offbalanced, hit Me again, and dropped me when I least expected it and could not counter. I was fighting back.

    Now I train there, and I'm not just spewing "my rbsd school is unstoppable" or, "our school is too deadly" or even "you can't hurt me if I apply this block" bullshit. But one would have to be very stupid to deny it when they encounter something special which does, in fact, work.

    The full sparring is really amazing to watch, and very fast. These guys have developed insane control of their striking and throwing so that both happen in overlapping and efficient rythms. They hit each other hard and the exchanges are fast and powerful. Imagine two guys banging their Muay Thai strikes as well as two experienced grapplers going....but at the same time. This is Silat. Yes....you could get them with a typical punch or tackle or throw.....but imagine the first time you walked onto a BJJ mat and had your ass handed to you by the resident purple belt. That's what the skill set feels like.

    They train for street, and it's a small group. They do not feel any need to prove themselves competent. Want to test it, come down. Want to see it? Come down.
  8. Steve357 is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    36

    Posted On:
    10/21/2006 4:03am


     Style: Bukti Negara Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Pendekar Paul De Thouars

    Quote Originally Posted by poidog
    If I may be so bold, I'd like to take a shot at answering these questions.

    1) The only time I saw silat sparred was when a guy from the local mande muda silat group came to a saturday stickfight put on by your friendly local clan of Full Contact Hawaii fighters. I fought him double stick, he fought some other group members single stick and took part in the knife sparring. Rules were basic/standard Dogbrother style rules: No intentionally crippling shots (i.e. unprotected back of head, spearing throat with thrust, etc) and remain friends at the end of the day. I was not particularly impressed. He was owned in his first single stick fight, owned on the ground during his second single stick fight, the double stick (me) went to the ground, and he was thoroughly killed in his knife sparring. When he and I went to the ground, he did make impressive use of his feet and almost secured an armbar (and pinched at my nutsack, the fucker). Now keep in mind, I suck at an almost godlike level on the ground, and back then I was even worse. Only the fact that I outweighed him by a good 40 pounds and could bull him around kept me from instant submission. When he fought our resident BJJ practitioner, he was less than effective, BJJ negated any ground tactics he tried to use.

    2) Yes, same guy. His claim was that the knife work in silat was so deadly that even with the aluminum training blades we were using he could really **** us up. What we did was call him on it, and he failed...thoroughly. He was killed even against our most junior fighters, repeatedly.

    3) What I saw did not resemble any wrestling I've ever seen. However, I might add that against someone not comfortable nor familiar with the ground, it is effective. I was hard pressed to avoid being submitted repeatedly while we were rolling. Wait, he had 3 single stick fights and he did destroy his opponent in one fight. It must be noted however, he was fighting our weakest fighter who only had 3 or 4 fights up until that point under his belt. The fight was decided by an armbar, and the defeated sucked worse on the ground than I do/did (that fighter subsequently stopped fighting with us). So again, effective against someone with no/little ground knowledge.

    4) I'm pretty sure they (his school) did not. I might add that after the day he came and fought with us, he never fought with us again.

    5) No, he didn't. Well, he cross-trained in other silat styles, but nothing outside of silat.

    Now, I would be doing a great disservice to silatista's everywhere if I did not add that even most of the guys at his school thought he was a loud mouthed twat. He had a big mouth, and could not back his **** talking.

    Mentioning the deadly silat throws; in training, they seem tremendously effective. And they are dangerous to the knees and ankles in the same way a heel hook, taken too far too fast, can be dangerous to the knee/ankles. No more, no less. But, I should mention that after many fights with Dogzilla, he has repeatedly complained of his inability to make the throws work in real time/real contact stickfighting. He briefly studied at the silat school where twat-boy studied (in the interest of making his own decisions regarding any art) and has since abandoned his studies there in favor of studying with two of the local (Hawaii) MMA gyms.

    As with anything I post, just my two cents.
    When you see "Serak" its people who don't know trying to cash in.
    I know most of you couldn't care less about that. For those of you that do care, if you want to see Silat really work, and work on a fighter, research Bukti Negara.

    I understand the frustration of the mma community with traditional martial arts. Almost all the time you guys have really good points. I have always been a "feel it and see it to believe it" martial artist. Tiger style? Do it on my muay thai.....lets see. I trained at the inosanto academy with Yori Nakamura....he brought Shooto to the US and is one of Rickson Gracie's close friends and training partners. I have rarely had harder training sessions than with him or at the Machado BJJ school in Reseda. What I have experienced in Bukti Negara under the instruction of Guro Danny Huybrechts and Pendekar Paul De Thouars defies explaination for me.

    I was searching for a more aggressive method like wing chun meets judo. In all of my training, JKD and Shooto with Yori Nakamura, BJJ with Jean Jacques Machado, etc etc, I had not felt confident at very close range and I wanted something for that range. Even Muay Thai seems to struggle with close range control until it gets into the Plum because there is no control on the opponent. You leave them strong when you throw elbows or knees, so they can fight back. The plum is difficult to get and if you are good at it, difficult to get out of. Still I wanted to be able to control my opponents more like BJJ does but standing up and still striking with muay thai power. I didn't think this existed.

    We all know anyone can and will get hit in a fight. This is real life. I've had my ass kicked many times and am humbled by the amount of damage a untrained fighter can deliver when they're really trying to get you. Broken rythm is a MF.

    I found out about Pendekar Paul De Thouars. He is probably the only real old school Silat player left in the US. He is the only lineage holder of Serak, which is his family's heirloom, so he does not teach it. Everyone who has learned Serak or throws around the name Serak has in one way or another, learned it from Pendekar Paul. Usually they have very little training and they leave, but claim 10 or more years of training. Pendekar's credibility is untarnished and he is the real deal. Even his own brothers have tried to cash in on the family name, even though they have less than yellowbelt knowledge and experience with the system. Pendekar is helpless to watch as his family and ex-beginner students rape and exploit the art he considers sacred.

    When I found about about these guys, some really unbelieveable claims were made by a former student. I did not believe any of them and had to see what BS they were slinging. I went down. What followed was a completely mind blowing experience.

    They are good.

    They spar right away.

    The body angles they use to control are aikido-like but at much closer distance.

    They strike much harder than a muay thai fighter can, at chest to chest range.

    They hit to move you into a different position on top of using weak angles.

    All these skillsets are drilled using very unique isolation drills and very carefull teaching.

    At first there is no resistance so you can learn the proper angles. This takes some time.

    Later resistance is moderated up and down in each drill, making sure that throws and positioning are not MUSCLED....and that the principles are being used.

    Sparring is achieved. It is awesome. It looks like Wing Chun, Muay Thai, and BJJ all done standing up, semi crouching, and on the ground at very close ranges.

    I've been hit hard in the face, neck, throat, ribs, back of the head, ear, shoulder, etc. In almost every class for the last year and a half. The training is by far.....by far. . . The hardest and most severe I have ever encountered. Top JKD schools seem like ballet schools in comparison. Muay Thai, although the conditioning is superior, is not nearly as destructive. The grappling they do, will work without strikes. Their footwork is ridiculous....very useable in a fight. When I try to shoot, or kickbox, which is openly encouraged, I am easily crashed into, hit, repositioned, hit again, and then slammed hard. More often than not, when thrown my arm (or arms) are held onto to break as I fall away from them.

    I have tried to grapple them. They hit extremely hard in class. I can't pull it off, there is too much damage happening. This is true Poekulan <to hit>.

    No mystism here. It works, they train hard. I have hit them hard myself, but if you don't knock them out in the first shot, they will be too close to hit after your first attack and at that point your hands are covered and your base too weak to do any purposeful striking.

    You know the pressure you've all felt when someone does a knee ride or is mounted, or even side control? This art teaches you to have that standing up. Constant forward pressure. The art works best under stressed situations when things fall apart. Just having extremely close range powerful striking allows you to crash past most boxing and kicking. Then most people try to grab or tackle. This is Bukti Negara's game. Every possible offensive tool is used, forearms, palms, fists, headbutts, especially elbows and not just for hitting, shoulders, knees, etc.

    To be thrown by a good (not that bullshit you see on internet videos....it's all crap) silat player, is frightening. I am not saying you can't stop them, or that they can't be hurt. I've hit them, tackeled them, etc. They keep going and are very very tough. They are always hitting with really powerful stuff. Their strikes are completely unique and I personally guarantee that not one of you would like to get hit by them even lightly. They are almost always aimed at weak areas, ie. elbow or forearm to neck, stuff like that.

    The leverage system is simple, effective and beautiful to watch applied on someone resisting. It works. I have seen multiple traditional systems fail the sparring or resistance test. Usually just a good kickboxer or shooter will take someone right off of their feet.

    Any of you are welcome to come and see for yourself. It is located in southern california, monrovia. Actually, come and feel it. They wont teil you not to do your thing, they'll encourage it.

    At my level there now, I don't think I could stop a good shooter without powerful elbows to weak areas. That's not fair for the shooter because many of those attacks are easy and therefore banned in Pride and UFC. The back of the head is extremely vulnerable as is the back of the neck. So I've learned the hard way. Kickboxing, even on someone skilled, isn't that hard to stop. I come from a "show me" mentality, and I was very impressed with how they crashed like a shooter in close, applied pressure and hits, then offbalanced, hit Me again, and dropped me when I least expected it and could not counter. I was fighting back.

    Now I train there, and I'm not just spewing "my rbsd school is unstoppable" or, "our school is too deadly" or even "you can't hurt me if I apply this block" bullshit. But one would have to be very stupid to deny it when they encounter something special which does, in fact, work.

    The full sparring is really amazing to watch, and very fast. These guys have developed insane control of their striking and throwing so that both happen in overlapping and efficient rythms. They hit each other hard and the exchanges are fast and powerful. Imagine two guys banging their Muay Thai strikes as well as two experienced grapplers going....but at the same time. This is Silat. Yes....you could get them with a typical punch or tackle or throw.....but imagine the first time you walked onto a BJJ mat and had your ass handed to you by the resident purple belt. That's what the skill set feels like.

    I am very athletick 200lbs. and train very hard with kettlebells daily. I've been kickboxing at well known schools like Inosanto Academy, Magada Institute, and the Jet Center for almost 13 years now. I'm no slouch. I spent two years with Jean Jacques Machado and 2 more with Yori Nakamura in Shooto. I can roll with experienced grapplers and do fine. My first time at Bukti Negara guys with 5 to 8 years of experience were bouncing me off the floor. Easily. These were like thier purple belts. The guys with 13 or more years of experience, forget it man. I can't even hit them. I go home sore and bruised. I love it.


    They train for street, and it's a small group. They do not feel any need to prove themselves competent. Want to test it, come down. Want to see it? Come down.
  9. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    austin, tx
    Posts
    2,428

    Posted On:
    10/21/2006 10:23am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I find that most of the silat takedowns i know work in sparring in my MMA class, but that I had a really hard time getting them off before i acquired basic wrestling positioning skills. I think the body of techniques in at least mande muda are good, but I don't think the traditional training method installs attributes efficiently as i would like. Cross train with a more traditional style of grappling. If you look like Jeff Brown, you're doing it right.
  10. Silatyogi is offline

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    9

    Posted On:
    6/19/2007 3:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    I find that most of the silat takedowns i know work in sparring in my MMA class, but that I had a really hard time getting them off before i acquired basic wrestling positioning skills. I think the body of techniques in at least mande muda are good, but I don't think the traditional training method installs attributes efficiently as i would like. Cross train with a more traditional style of grappling. If you look like Jeff Brown, you're doing it right.
    In order for them to really work in real time and in sparring you have to understand the leverage, the angles, the Langkahs, and shoulder position.

    Otherwise you are guessing and using pure muscle and tension.
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