Thread: Silat: Sparring and Exoticizing
7/13/2005 11:03pm, #11
WELL THE COCKS KEEP FOLLOWING ME AROUND LIKE PERSISTENT HORNETS OR A BAD ITCH
Sen~or Chaotico: You appear to be, at least on the surface, a silatista without that shiteating superiority complex common to others of your kind online. Please, sit down. Have a bagel. I'll be giving you some questions.
1: What does your sparring look like? What kind of rules do you employ?
2: Have you ever met a Silatista who claimed to be 2 deadly 2 spar/2 legit 2 quit? What did you do with him (it's almost always him)?
3: Does Silat resemble wrestling in any way?
4: Does your school enter tournaments?
5: Do you crosstrain?
Please don't hurt me again. I've already had my heart broken so many times.
"The only important elements in any society
are the artistic and the criminal,
because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany
RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS
THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER
It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children
7/14/2005 12:47am, #12
I have a good friend that studied semi-extensively under W DeTours.
Its partially my fault, but it took only 3 posts before the true nature of this thread burst thru its own chest like an alien.
I think its more than bad chi - its bad thread starting feng shui."You know what I like about you, William? You like guns AND meditation."
7/14/2005 11:15am, #13
Originally Posted by hedgehogey
- Join Date
- Jun 2004
- Sanctum Sanctorum, SoCal
- FMA, DBMA, MMA
1) The only time I saw silat sparred was when a guy from the local mande muda silat group came to a saturday stickfight put on by your friendly local clan of Full Contact Hawaii fighters. I fought him double stick, he fought some other group members single stick and took part in the knife sparring. Rules were basic/standard Dogbrother style rules: No intentionally crippling shots (i.e. unprotected back of head, spearing throat with thrust, etc) and remain friends at the end of the day. I was not particularly impressed. He was owned in his first single stick fight, owned on the ground during his second single stick fight, the double stick (me) went to the ground, and he was thoroughly killed in his knife sparring. When he and I went to the ground, he did make impressive use of his feet and almost secured an armbar (and pinched at my nutsack, the fucker). Now keep in mind, I suck at an almost godlike level on the ground, and back then I was even worse. Only the fact that I outweighed him by a good 40 pounds and could bull him around kept me from instant submission. When he fought our resident BJJ practitioner, he was less than effective, BJJ negated any ground tactics he tried to use.
2) Yes, same guy. His claim was that the knife work in silat was so deadly that even with the aluminum training blades we were using he could really **** us up. What we did was call him on it, and he failed...thoroughly. He was killed even against our most junior fighters, repeatedly.
3) What I saw did not resemble any wrestling I've ever seen. However, I might add that against someone not comfortable nor familiar with the ground, it is effective. I was hard pressed to avoid being submitted repeatedly while we were rolling. Wait, he had 3 single stick fights and he did destroy his opponent in one fight. It must be noted however, he was fighting our weakest fighter who only had 3 or 4 fights up until that point under his belt. The fight was decided by an armbar, and the defeated sucked worse on the ground than I do/did (that fighter subsequently stopped fighting with us). So again, effective against someone with no/little ground knowledge.
4) I'm pretty sure they (his school) did not. I might add that after the day he came and fought with us, he never fought with us again.
5) No, he didn't. Well, he cross-trained in other silat styles, but nothing outside of silat.
Now, I would be doing a great disservice to silatista's everywhere if I did not add that even most of the guys at his school thought he was a loud mouthed twat. He had a big mouth, and could not back his **** talking.
Mentioning the deadly silat throws; in training, they seem tremendously effective. And they are dangerous to the knees and ankles in the same way a heel hook, taken too far too fast, can be dangerous to the knee/ankles. No more, no less. But, I should mention that after many fights with Dogzilla, he has repeatedly complained of his inability to make the throws work in real time/real contact stickfighting. He briefly studied at the silat school where twat-boy studied (in the interest of making his own decisions regarding any art) and has since abandoned his studies there in favor of studying with two of the local (Hawaii) MMA gyms.
As with anything I post, just my two cents.Kuha'o - Kela - Koa
7/14/2005 5:40pm, #14
Originally Posted by hedgehogey
- Join Date
- Mar 2005
- pentjak silat/ kali
Happy to answer your questions sir.
1. OK- Sparring. The empty hand sparring with two full time members of our school would often look pretty much like your standard MMA fighting, with the takedowns and sweeps being executed a bit differently than average bjj/ wrestling clinch work (although you'd see a lot of 'orthodox' moves too). I'm an older dude (32) but we had a few younger guys in their 20's who really follwed local MMA events like NAGA and Mass Destruction. They were always trying to give our Silat stuff the true litmus test to see if it'd work in the ring, which my teacher and I always encouraged. We obviously had to go easy on the headbutts, eye damage, and elbows, since all we'd wear is gloves, a mouthguard and a cup, although those would rarely ever be used anyway. When sparring with practitioners of other arts or noobs however, would have you seeing a lot more of the actual Silat techniques being executed because these fighters were unfamiliar with the moves we were doing. That was the proof (to me anyway) that many of our techniques were pretty sound.
The knife sparring got REALLY out of control a few times. Not that anyone got seriously injured beyond bumps and bruises, but it just got really intense and violent. Towards the end of our training we had a kid who had done DB/ Kali for many years, and he would totally tweak out on us (although empty handed he was fuckin awful- it was really weird). We eventually concluded that most knife disarms sucked, and the few good ones that we'd learned from the Sayoc system would only work about 20% of the time. Against the Kali kid they NEVER worked at all! Anyway, that's getting off the subject a bit, since I was only taught offensive knife techniques in Silat, and the knife defenses that we worked on from other arts like Pekiti Tersia all pretty much sucked. Chris Sayoc's were the only ones that would work, and even those were far from fool proof.
2. The only 'other' Silat fighters I've trained with outside of my immediate school (we were the only one in the area as far as I know) were Tristan Sutrisno from PA and some people in Holland involved in Suti Hati and Serak. These gentlemen were all older and of Indonesian extraction (Tristan is 100% Indonesian) and the others (Jim Ingram and others I met in Holland) were of mixed Dutch/ Indo descent. None of them claimed "too deadly" in fact many claimed they'd had their asses beaten numerous times in their youth for being too cocky about their fighting skills. A couple of the Holland guys boxed too, and spoke of boxing like it was a really essential part of their fighting training.
3. The Silat I trained in (Amerindo Self Defense) is a blend of Mustika Kweetang and Tjimande (tradtional Silat styles that look a bit Chinese influenced) and Pukulan. The word "Pukulan" gets thrown around a lot in the US, and seems to mean a bunch of different things. Basically, how Pukulan was explained to me is it is the Dutch/ Indonesian mixed bloods' (aka "Indos") version of Silat. It is definitely more western looking and feeling than some of the traditional Silat styles (like Harimau- or "Tiger Style") and incorporates a lot of boxing and fencing movements. I liked the Pukulan techniques the best. We actually DID have a lot of ground techniques. My instructor had trained a bit in BJJ so he worked a few of their techniques into our groundfighting. The guru of our art though (Jim Ingram) actually started training in Gulat (traditional Indian wrestling) before he learned Silat, so in addition to tchniques taken from the previously listed styles, we also had a lot of Gulat in our style as well. I'm not sure how Gulat differs from any other wrestling, as I've never trained in any, but I'd venture to guess it's pretty similar to regular submission grappling.
4. We never entered tournaments or did demos. My teacher was really weird and secretive about Silat. However, I was never discouraged from competing. Since we only trained 1-2 times a week, if I were to compete I definitely would have had to train more to get into better shape, and fight a LOT more. No one ever said I wasn't allowed to do that, and we actually had an MT guy and an amateur boxer training with us for awhile. Those guys were great.
5. I kind of answered this question a bit in #4, but no, I do not currently cross train, though I am def. planning on it. Actually as of last week my Silat teacher informed me that he's taking the summer off from teaching, and may actually move away. If he does, I've been encouraged to take over the classes if I so desire, although I feel really weird about that since I'm only 3 years into Silat, as opposed to his 9. He also trained in some Kali, a fair amount of BJJ, some Bando and a lot of MT. The man is truly gifted, and he def. showed us a LOT of material, not just Silat. I def. plan to continue training in MA, and might see about trying to get a space to do Silat at a new MMA gym that opened up in S. RI. If I do that, I'll be able to cross train in boxing an sub wrestling, which I would be stoked on if the guys there are legit. I'm going to check them out next week.
Soooo to sum this all up, the majority of my Silat experience comes from a suburban American dude who's been fanatical about learning anything and everything that he deemed effective in MA for the past 17 years, with the majority of his concentration being on SE Asian arts. He's one of those guys who sees a technique done once and can totally do it. Truly gifted. The other people I've trained with in Silat were mostly Indos, and their take on Silat was to demystify it and make it more of a practical fighting art than a cultural/ mystical experience. If you know anything about the Indos, they were persecuted by the Japanese and then later by the newly formed Muslim fundamentalist state in Indonesia. Many were killed or expatriated to Holland, so they are pretty hardcore and down to earth guys. I feel lucky to have trained with some of them- esp. Jim Ingram.
I just wrote a friggin book! Anyway, I hope that this proves that not all Pentjakkers (or "Silatistas" as you guys called them) are snobby, know it all Walter Mitty types. Or worse- RBSD types who don't actually fight.
7/15/2005 4:49am, #15
Originally Posted by hedgehogey
- Join Date
- Oct 2003
We spend the first 2 years on the ground before we even do any upright stuff. The ground work is dynamic and always moving, not making us "sitting ducks". We spar with top BJJ fighters and MMA competitors. We're not from the school of thought that our techniques are "too deadly", and know that hard, pressure tested sparring is essential for every student. Not sparring is a copout which sadly gives the whole art a laughable aspect.
Unfortunately the name of silat in the US has been tarnished by something labelled 'silat' (normally blended with Kali for some strange reason), and given a bad rep to everyone else (generalisation, but you know what I mean).
We don't touch a blade or knife until quite late on, or shroud our system in mysticism or myths. We do hard conditioning, very demanding training and have lots of good old fashioned rucks (fights) during sparring.
The main instructor is a guy called Steve Benitez, and to anyone that has met him, whether in silat circles of BJJ circles or whatever circles knows that the training we do is on par with anyone else.
I do think though, that the silat in the US sometimes get a hard rap, and have found the people training in it to be kind and generous folk, who at times don't deserve the comments that people post on some forums (not necessarily this one).
7/15/2005 6:48am, #16
7/15/2005 2:19pm, #17
Originally Posted by hedgehogey
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Silat, Taijiquan
I have to weigh in with Hedgehogey, although I find the demand for video a little ironic, and LoC.
1. Yes, this happens. It happens a lot. My instructor is Indonesian. He has people ask him what it was like growing up in a hut with animals living in it. No kidding. People don't often talk about ethical credos such as mercy and compassion in conjunction with silat as it ruins this image. Since many techniques are adapted as flavor of the month for certain groups of RBSD guys, many of whom use the term "silat" loosely, this isn't surprising. On the other hand you have people who stress other aspects (see the Wikipedia article) above all else and make questionable assertions about techniques because they underemphasize the bela diri aspects and may not even be knowledgeable. Like the silat conditioning thread from a while back, that wasn't "conditioning" so much as kebatinan, loosely, mystical development. This also ties into the physical aspects below.
2. I think the key here is that they can be destructive, depending upon how you do them, however you also need to learn to do them for control purposes and mercy. In the end this isn't much different than the BJJ/JJ so popular on this board. An armbar easily becomes destructive, especially if you snap down immediately without control. For all of the "destructiveness" of the techniques you need to learn to apply them with control when training, bluntly if you can't drill it don't expect to be able to do it, this really isn't any different in any MA, are you going to start breaking your training partners? Also you need to be able to do the movements mercifully as not every occassion is one in which you should instantly destroy your opponent.
So basically all of the moves need to be done, and drilled, with their merciful aspects. When doing the full movement you need control and need to pay close attention, allow the person to move their leg, body etc. watch carefully for the tap. However, since the objectives of silat for combat are destruction, e.g. everything we do builds to a variant of a class of movement called "puter kepala", meaning "turn the head", a euphemism for turn the head the wrong way. So that you learn ways to twist the head, or other joint positions (knee, elbow, wrist esp.) while the body is going down a different direction. Picture a guillotine chokes but instead of getting a tap, snap down and twist, sometimes with a sweep, keeping the head pinned. Nobody says not to do the guillotine, the arm bar, etc. in a match because you are assuming trust and civility. That doesn't mean they couldn't go that route. The difference with silat is that every entry and sequence builds to a variation on this. However, it seems to me that people often refer to "puter throws/takedowns" and such which in the end are the merciful faces. Take down and control (tjekel). Whereas some make the control the objective, silat's objectives are the more destructive motions, with the build up being the way to enter to it. So you just don't carry it that far, you learn to control only. When practicing the other aspects of course you need to be careful with supervision and attention. So it is interesting that many (not all) things you see are questionable in their full knowledge of the technique and what makes it "deadly". The problem is, of course, without learning to control and drill it, how can you do it?
My instructor always says people who claim something is too deadly are full of sh*t. However, that isn't an attack on all of them. There are some RBSD guys who have some skill and just have no interest in the other aspects. Although from the way I am taught you need to learn it for control as well in order to learn to do it, *and* apply it according to circumstances.
As far as various techniques themselves the entries are just slightly different, the body positioning is often different, this has to do with the objectives and also because silat always expects a weapon, in fact most of the empty hand techniques come right out of the various weapons. So the approach is different.
Another thing I might add is that when speaking about "deadly techniques" and such, the real thing to watch is whether the individual has any sense of how to get to that position. Anyone can be "deadly" in a snapshot photo to anyone else if they just stand there and let them do whatever they want. Many people speak of deadly or effective techniques of blah blah blah and all they can demonstrate is the final position or the final sequence, if they demonstrate at all. You need to be able to position yourself and your opponent into such places that you can capitalize. That is the difficult thing about training, that is where the work comes in. Focusing on "deadly techniques" should be a red flag immediately, or as my instructor's teacher says "Any technique is a non-technique in the hands of a beginner." Training only the "deadly" without a foundation in, without constant drilling of, without even knowing the basics is fruitless. (Pun intended.) Or as my teacher would say more pithily "If you want to kick a tiger's ass, you better know how to get around his fangs."
In short, you will find many RBSD guys falling back on the too deadly, because they don't have full understanding of fundamentals, so it saves demonstrations, and others who focus on other aspects who simply don't know. It may be silat, it may be taiji, it may be *any other MA* bullsh*t is bullsh*t is bullsh*t. The majority of it will probably always be such.
P.S. I better get a "STFU Noob", this is my third post I think, and no one has mistreated me. :-(
I will probably go back to lurking, or maybe figure out how to make a sig and make a comment to the RI guy, or try to flirt with JKDChick. Oh and I'm not saying I am any good, I'm just trying to learn, just another one of those fat, traditional guys. However, I am very happy with you guys right now because it was on this board I got turned onto Last Legend swords and I just got mine. So thanks to the guys who recommended them.
McDojo Mottos we'd like to see:
"Kicking your ass, one cheek at a time."
7/15/2005 2:30pm, #18
7/15/2005 3:06pm, #19
Originally Posted by Lord Of Chaos
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Silat, Taijiquan
I have met a bunch of the RI guys now, wondering if you are one of them. If you see them, tell T. and G. the taiji IronChef says he better see them this summer. They'll be able to figure that out.
Here is something funny that G. will remember. So we are hanging out in between sessions in my room and this cute maid, or domestic engineer, or whatever comes in and we said she could clean around us. So she starts asking about what we are doing and I am turning on the charm pretty thick, she seems into it, really into it, tells me where she is tending bar that night. So she is saying she always wanted to learn something, so I am showing her a basic or two, she gets to see some empty hand up close thinks it is cool, and then I decide to whip out a big phallus, which we call a machete. She get's quite sullen and withdrawn and says "I don't like that at all...that murder last week was my uncle." So I looked it up, her uncle was hacked to death with a machete about a week before!
Is that divine CBing or what? What are the odds? It's gotta be like monkeys banging out Shakespeare or something. Say "la v". I haven't had the balls to pull a machete on a woman since!
BTW what LoC isn't saying is those RI guys like to put the pain on each other, in a friendly way. You show a nice gentle take down and pin and when you turn your head they are digging like mad into the other guy's kidney as they twitch on the ground. I guess it is true compassion ("suffering with") though because they take their turn next. ;-)
7/15/2005 3:07pm, #20
Originally Posted by BatRonin
- Join Date
- Jan 2005
- Silat, Taijiquan