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  1. dc725 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 8:24pm


     Style: tkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    what other check and balance is there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack

    I don't see how failing people is a positive sign. It is negative. Our instructors are failing to properly prepare some students.
    That I believe was the point. That some regions care whether or not the instructors being certified can meet the requirements.

    I think the ATA has some hard thinking to do about how it certifies instructors and has them go forth and multiply (so to speak).

    DC
  2. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/02/2005 8:41pm


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That I believe was the point. That some regions care whether or not the instructors being certified can meet the requirements.

    I think the ATA has some hard thinking to do about how it certifies instructors and has them go forth and multiply (so to speak).

    DC
    My point was that it doesn't matter if a region cares about quality. If their students are failing the camps then there is a quality issue. Now I understand that people have off days and people will fail from time to time, but saying that we are a quality region because we fail people every camp or that people who do poorly is like saying L.A. is a safe city because of the number of arrests they make.

    When I took my level two camp in a different region, there were 28 other people along with me for level 2. Myself and two other gentlemen were the only ones who knew the color belt forms, and the great majority of the campers were 2nd and 3rd degrees. The Masters had me and the other two people teach BLACK BELTS the color belt forms because they had other things they needed to get through. And everyone passed level 2.

    Even if the masters failed all those people, I would still say there is a serious quailty issue in that region and I would not recommend any of my students, or other people, to train in that region/states.

    You are right though, the ATA has some hard thinking to do.
    Last edited by Shu2jack; 8/02/2005 8:44pm at .
  3. Aodhan is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 12:19am


     Style: ATA TKD, Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack
    I don't see how failing people is a positive sign. It is negitive. Our instructors are failing to properly prepare some students.
    Agreed, but some people freeze at testing or when it is just them alone. I see no problem with failing someone that can do it as an assistant but can't do it on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack
    Thats just me though. Sorry, I turned it into kind of a mini-rant. Non-ATA people are not the only ones frusterated at the ATA.
    Also agreed. There are things that I really don't like about the ATA, block system being primary among them.

    Aodhan
  4. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 7:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shu2jack
    I don't see how failing people is a positive sign. It is negitive. Our instructors are failing to properly prepare some students.
    The instructor can only do so much. Like a school teacher they can do their best to instruct them while they are in class. However, once they leave class it is the student's responsibility to put in the extra time in studying. Some of them just leave all of that at the door when they leave the school.

    People tend to link failure as a negative consequence. However, if you learn something from your failure and then can become better the next time around, then wouldn't that be a positive?

    From what I have seen from many of the ATA students in this area I would have to agree that the instructors are failing to prepare the students. However, if they are following suit of the ATA organization, then is it not the organization who is failing overall? There seems to be a bandwagaon effect with them. Whenever the next big trend comes out of MAIA they instantly jump on to grab that money. As a result the seem to grow further and further from their core training. You know the ATA is very similar to many Korean conglomerate businesses that had huge crashes back in the 90's. Those businesses tended to get their hands into every little thing and forget what it was they actually started doing business with in the first place....coincidence?

    Thats just me though. Sorry, I turned it into kind of a mini-rant. Non-ATA people are not the only ones frusterated at the ATA.
    Yes, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of internal grass roots efforts to change things either. Why is this? Are there not enough ATA people frustrated with the present regime? Perhaps there are and you all are not quite organized yet to start making the changes? Why do you think nothing has changed for the better and things seem to be getting worse?
    Jeremy M. Talbott

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  5. Swede is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 7:25am


     Style: KMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by miguksaram
    The instructor can only do so much. Like a school teacher they can do their best to instruct them while they are in class. However, once they leave class it is the student's responsibility to put in the extra time in studying. Some of them just leave all of that at the door when they leave the school.

    People tend to link failure as a negative consequence. However, if you learn something from your failure and then can become better the next time around, then wouldn't that be a positive?
    I'm not in the ATA so I am not speaking on behalf of their org; this is an excellent point that fails to register with so many people today. Failure is not a negative if you use it to improve but I see many students and parents of the minors who think their only requirement for passing a test is to simply remember the movements/techniques regardless of proficiency. It's easier to retain students when they pass even though some have to realize that their technique is lacking.

    Quote Originally Posted by miguksaram
    From what I have seen from many of the ATA students in this area I would have to agree that the instructors are failing to prepare the students. However, if they are following suit of the ATA organization, then is it not the organization who is failing overall? There seems to be a bandwagaon effect with them. Whenever the next big trend comes out of MAIA they instantly jump on to grab that money. As a result the seem to grow further and further from their core training. You know the ATA is very similar to many Korean conglomerate businesses that had huge crashes back in the 90's. Those businesses tended to get their hands into every little thing and forget what it was they actually started doing business with in the first place....coincidence?



    Yes, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of internal grass roots efforts to change things either. Why is this? Are there not enough ATA people frustrated with the present regime? Perhaps there are and you all are not quite organized yet to start making the changes? Why do you think nothing has changed for the better and things seem to be getting worse?
    It could be that the majority are happy with the promotions even though they wouldn't measure up to a properly trained person of equal rank. Since ATA is a closed system, they can be as good or bad as they want without having to withstand criticism from anyone outside their org. Not saying that is their mindset but I see it where my kids and I train. Many high belts there who will not go to a tournament for numerous weak reasons but when you see them in class you immediately understand why.

    v/r

    Swede.
  6. Shu2jack is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 9:48am


     Style: AMAI TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I totally agree that failure in itself is not a negitive, but in this case it is.

    These people, who are already assist teaching or are actually teaching students, are lacking the knowledge and physical skills nesscary to pass the instructor test.

    If THEY can't pass their test, a test that they should be able to pass anyway because they should've had to know the material just to earn their black belt, then I can only imagine how the students they are helping are turning out.

    I also agree that an instructor can only do such much. But a student needs their instructor's permission to attend the camp. If the student can't meet the standards despite all your help, don't let them go.

    So yes, in this situation, failure is a very, very negitive thing.

    Yes, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of internal grass roots efforts to change things either. Why is this? Are there not enough ATA people frustrated with the present regime? Perhaps there are and you all are not quite organized yet to start making the changes? Why do you think nothing has changed for the better and things seem to be getting worse?
    Oh, there is resistance. I have to get going, but I will expand later.
  7. gonchez is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 12:57pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let me clarify something about the failures. At this point, the first and second camp are not Pass/Fail. It is participation-based. Only the final certification (level 3) is Pass/Fail. In addition - at this time - one is not required to know ANY of the lower belt form material at the first two camps. This is because the emphasis is not on the physical material but rather on the teaching concepts. This is not opinion. This is fact.

    As a RCC, part of my job discription is to maintain quality control. If someone before the testing panel can not perform the material - whether it be physical curriculum or teaching ability - they do not pass. It is quite simple and I don't care who their Instructor is.

    In my opinion, failure is only a negative thing ONLY if the Instructor didn't properly prepare the student. At one particular camp, I had a Level 3 candidate actually tell me he didn't know he was going to be tested on ALL the lower belt material. After camp, I took his instructor aside and politely 'educated' him.

    As far as 'resistance' goes.... well I am not quite sure what to make of that. People voice their opinions in many ways. Most just gripe and whine but stay where they are. Some leave and start somewhere else. Others will try to make change from within. They can accomplish this by setting the example and walking the talk.
  8. Swede is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 1:32pm


     Style: KMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gonchez
    Let me clarify something about the failures. At this point, the first and second camp are not Pass/Fail. It is participation-based. Only the final certification (level 3) is Pass/Fail. In addition - at this time - one is not required to know ANY of the lower belt form material at the first two camps. This is because the emphasis is not on the physical material but rather on the teaching concepts. This is not opinion. This is fact.

    As a RCC, part of my job discription is to maintain quality control. If someone before the testing panel can not perform the material - whether it be physical curriculum or teaching ability - they do not pass. It is quite simple and I don't care who their Instructor is.

    In my opinion, failure is only a negative thing ONLY if the Instructor didn't properly prepare the student. At one particular camp, I had a Level 3 candidate actually tell me he didn't know he was going to be tested on ALL the lower belt material. After camp, I took his instructor aside and politely 'educated' him.
    Gonchez, are you saying that even though he didn't realize he was going to be tested on all of the material he knew it anyway and passed or that he simply didn't know all of the material and didn't pass due to his instructor not preparing him?

    Swede
  9. gonchez is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 1:40pm


     Style: TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am saying it seems his Instructor didn't prepare him for the exam. Perhaps that's the way they do it in their school. Sadly, it happens. Perhaps the Instructor was ill-informed. Doubtful.

    In case anyone is wondering, students in our camps have not passed for poor physical execution, lack of memory/performance of the curriculum, and teaching ability.
  10. Swede is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2005 1:46pm


     Style: KMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you for clarifying that.

    Swede

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