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  1. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 9:18am

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lawdog
    Don't most BJJ schools do grip work? The guys at the machado school where I trained occasionally, as well as the dozens of BJJ guys I've trained with at the judo club all seemed to have some grip training. Not so much standing, but on the mat. I assumed judo would be redundant in that aspect.
    Judo is in a league of its own in this respect. When you are doing stand up, the grip is THE most important and underestimated aspect of the game.


    But I question how significant that is in BJJ because of the way it's scored. The scoring certainly makes tachi waza less relevant. Maybe I'm mistaken about that. I've never competed in BJJ. Am I wrong about that? Are BJJ matches ever won by superior tachi waza?
    In the United Gracie competition a couple of months ago I won using only throws. My opponent refused to pull guard, so it was kept standing. Unfortunately for the other guy he had not focused enough on his Judo.

    But in a more general answer, yes matches are often won with tachi waza. In fact, my whole game is based on them. I get the throw, I play top game. I am a guard passer. I pass and work or wait for my opening and then finish it. Other people's games are based on the sweep. Mine game is based on momentum. Get the throw early, and use the impact/shock to find the opening in the guard to exploit it. 5pts (2+3) early on is a big lead. They now have to really open up to make up ground. They create opportunities. If they are better than me on the ground I simply allow them some space to get to all 4's and then stand back up. We start over.
  2. lawdog is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 10:00am

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     Style: Judo & Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Judo is in a league of its own in this respect. When you are doing stand up, the grip is THE most important and underestimated aspect of the game.
    Believe me, after almost 20 yrs. of judo, I'm well aware of the importance of grip and I agree that its importance is often underestimated by lower level competitiors. I just assumed that BJJ would place the same emphasis on grip. My bad.

    In the United Gracie competition a couple of months ago I won using only throws. My opponent refused to pull guard, so it was kept standing. Unfortunately for the other guy he had not focused enough on his Judo.

    But in a more general answer, yes matches are often won with tachi waza. In fact, my whole game is based on them. I get the throw, I play top game. I am a guard passer. I pass and work or wait for my opening and then finish it. Other people's games are based on the sweep. Mine game is based on momentum. Get the throw early, and use the impact/shock to find the opening in the guard to exploit it. 5pts (2+3) early on is a big lead. They now have to really open up to make up ground. They create opportunities. If they are better than me on the ground I simply allow them some space to get to all 4's and then stand back up. We start over.
    That's interesting. Thanks for the education. I've trained with plenty of BJJ guys but have never seen a competition. I just assumed that because of the scoring, and based on my experience with them, the goal was generally to get on the mat quickly and by any means necessary and stay there. Do you think that my assumption would hold true at the higher levels, or once again would it just depend on the particular strengths and weaknesses of the individual competitor?

    I have a couple other questions. Is your stand up game better than your ground game in judo? Do you believe that BJJ has significantly helped your judo ne-waza?
  3. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 10:17am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the answer to your first question is completely subjective. There are a few guys in BJJ right now with strong Judo and they can dominate with those skills if they are allowed to. It's always about the match up AND the individuals. Some guys will jump to guard instantly. Some will only go to the ground with a throw.

    Hmmmm. When I did Judo I think my newaza was better. I didn't get a lot of Ippon throws. Lots of wazari's that I had to follow up with.

    Your last question: I haven't done strict Judo in years. I think my last Judo competition was in 1998? But I can speculate that I would absolutely own Judo guys with my groundwork nowadays. The only problem is that my throws have suffered badly over the years and I would be hard pressed not to get Ipponed. And the trend for Judoka to incorporate more groundwork lately would also nullify some of that advantage.
  4. Loxocemidae is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 12:15pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From just my year of Judo, when I fight with no-gi, I can take down wrestlers and Bjj practitioners... If you learn to fully use your Judo outside of the gi, you can be unstoppable; for instance, Karo Parisyan.

    Judo stance is better than any wrestling, or Bjj stance, if you fully develope the technique, neither wrestler or Bjj-er will worry you in no gi.
  5. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 1:15pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry to say I do not agree.

    Wrestlers own Judoka NO-GI in the clinch and on lower body takedowns. Maybe not OWN them, but definately have an extreme advantage. The reality is they spend their time without a gi. Very few Judoka would put the time in with no-gi that could be compared to even the laziest wrestler.

    And I would also disagree that a Judo stance is better than wrestling or BJJ stance.

    Why?

    Because Judoka are encouraged to keep thier POSTURE. They do this for a variety of reasons. The main one being they can attack better. However you will find that keeping posture against a wrestler you will be on your back. Most BJJ'ers do not use posture because of the vulnerability to leg takedowns. Wrestlers are the same. The bent over, arms half extended with palms up/downuch more applicable to no-gi than any other stance.

    Your example of Karo is an exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. Look at the number of successfull takedown artists in MMA. The overwhelming majority of them are wrestlers. There are very few Judoka, in fact probably only a handfull, that make it work in MMA consistently. Wheras there are virtual armies of wrestlers who very successfully take the fight to the ground in MMA.
  6. Loxocemidae is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 2:32pm


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Sorry to say I do not agree.

    Wrestlers own Judoka NO-GI in the clinch and on lower body takedowns. Maybe not OWN them, but definately have an extreme advantage. The reality is they spend their time without a gi. Very few Judoka would put the time in with no-gi that could be compared to even the laziest wrestler.

    And I would also disagree that a Judo stance is better than wrestling or BJJ stance.

    Why?

    Because Judoka are encouraged to keep thier POSTURE. They do this for a variety of reasons. The main one being they can attack better. However you will find that keeping posture against a wrestler you will be on your back. Most BJJ'ers do not use posture because of the vulnerability to leg takedowns. Wrestlers are the same. The bent over, arms half extended with palms up/downuch more applicable to no-gi than any other stance.

    Your example of Karo is an exception to the rule rather than the rule itself. Look at the number of successfull takedown artists in MMA. The overwhelming majority of them are wrestlers. There are very few Judoka, in fact probably only a handfull, that make it work in MMA consistently. Wheras there are virtual armies of wrestlers who very successfully take the fight to the ground in MMA.
    You make a good point, but I'm speaking of the Judoka who can even use it even without the gi.

    I've trained with black belts that help me to use my posture and fast foot work against wrestlers and Bjj-ers. It's really very easy to evade lowerbody takedowns, and maybe even counter them from the Judo posture. Plus I also crosstrain with wrestlers and Bjj-ers to work on my gi, and no-gi standup, so my clinch work is very good.

    But, I believe people have said this before, it's how you take your training.
  7. Gumby is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2005 3:47pm


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I keep bent at the waist while in the process of looking for my grip in BJJ. My throws are just starting to come around. After I get my grips, thats when I keep my posture so that my hips are close to my opponents and I can keep him from attacking my legs.

    When I go to no gi, I also fight with a wrestlers stance and usually look to tieup. From there its usually a sag throw, double underhooks, snapdowns, and ankle picks. But if I can get a good whizzer on my good side, theres always a good hip throw there.
  8. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/12/2005 6:03am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    And I would also disagree that a Judo stance is better than wrestling or BJJ stance.

    Why?

    Because Judoka are encouraged to keep thier POSTURE. They do this for a variety of reasons. The main one being they can attack better. However you will find that keeping posture against a wrestler you will be on your back.
    Surely this is true only in no-gi? The Japanese seem to hold their own pretty well against the stooped Russian stance. I think that you could fairly claim the Japanese Judo stance is better for gi work - the French team have been adopting it and I've seen it being taught by some top-notch coaches who teach British team players over here in the UK, so I think there's possibly a bit of a rethink going on regarding stooped postures in European judo terms. The upright posture, done properly, is incredibly mobile.

    Of course, that may be an artifact of the current gripping rules and maybe the sambo people would clean up if the rules were relaxed, so I'm not entirely sure on this one. I know how hard it is to get a decent leg grip when someone's latched onto your gi though.
  9. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Submitting 1d6 Investigators per round

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2005 10:22am

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo is the best for takedowns with a gi.

    Freestyle is the best for takedowns without a gi.

    Either will make you better at takedowns /overall/, so if you take judo your no-gi takedowns will get better - but not as good as your gi takedowns will, and not as fast as they would if you took freestyle. And vice versa.

    If you want to concentrate on BJJ with the gi, judo. If you want to concentrate on no-gi or MMA, freestyle.

    I'm not sure why there's even argument on this point.
  10. ImAlrdyNum is offline
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    aahhh...the colors

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    Posted On:
    7/12/2005 12:49pm

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     Style: Judo & Sub Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fatherdog
    Judo is the best for takedowns with a gi.

    Freestyle is the best for takedowns without a gi.

    Either will make you better at takedowns /overall/, so if you take judo your no-gi takedowns will get better - but not as good as your gi takedowns will, and not as fast as they would if you took freestyle. And vice versa.

    If you want to concentrate on BJJ with the gi, judo. If you want to concentrate on no-gi or MMA, freestyle.

    I'm not sure why there's even argument on this point.
    Because, Captain Obvious, we were just waiting for you to respond with your words of wisdom and infinite knowledge.
    Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that kickboxing is commonly known as fighting while grappling simply isn't. - Osiris
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